Dealing with Debt with Dr Jeff Anzalone - 132

[00:00:00] Have you ever found yourself wondering what you'll do with all the debt you have?

[00:00:03] Debt's something that impacts every one of our lives, so why don't we talk about it more?

[00:00:07] Let's talk about that in today's episode. Welcome to Money Talk with Skyler Fleming,

[00:00:12] where we talk about money because there's more than just math to your finances. Let's get talking!

[00:00:17] Welcome to today's episode of Money Talk with Skyler Fleming. Today I'm excited to dive into

[00:00:22] the topic that's universally relatable, yet often confusing and intimidating, and that is debt.

[00:00:28] As someone who's grappled with the weight of debt and its emotional complexities myself,

[00:00:32] I understand firsthand the challenges it can present and the importance of finding a path

[00:00:35] forward. In this episode we'll embark on a journey guided by the insights of Jeff Anzalone,

[00:00:40] who shares his experience and perspectives of navigating debt from his early days as a Dave

[00:00:44] Ramsey fan to charting his own course towards financial independence. Jeff's story

[00:00:49] offers lessons and practical strategies for anyone seeking to conquer debt and build

[00:00:53] financial security with their financial future. We'll explore a wide range of topics from risks

[00:00:58] around debt, particularly for high earners, what should you even consider when it comes to debt,

[00:01:02] the importance of a strategic plan, and flexibility in a financial philosophy.

[00:01:07] Jeff's journey serves as a testament of knowledge, collaboration, and continuing to

[00:01:12] learn and grow to overcome challenges as you really reach for those long-term goals. So

[00:01:16] whether you're feeling overwhelmed by debt or simply looking to sharpen your financial saw,

[00:01:20] join us as we unpack a great conversation around debt management and uncover some actionable

[00:01:26] insights that you can take into your money talk with your friends and family to help you on

[00:01:30] your financial journey. The money talking points for today's episode are, you can't change much

[00:01:34] about your financial situation overnight, what small step do you need to take today to change

[00:01:39] your situation? And two, how much money is automatically going out the door every single

[00:01:44] month? With the money talking points in mind, let's get talking. Hello everybody, welcome to

[00:01:58] today's interview on money talk with Skyler Fleming. Joining me today, I have Dr. Jeff

[00:02:04] Anzaloni. I'm not sure how to pronounce that last name so I'll let you correct me here in a

[00:02:07] moment. But Jeff, would you go ahead and introduce yourself for everybody?

[00:02:11] Yeah, actually I tell people the way to remember my last name is kind of like loan,

[00:02:16] getting a loan, except we're going to talk about debt. Anzalone.

[00:02:20] There we go, Anzalone. Awesome. Well, what do you do? What do you do in your day job?

[00:02:24] I know you talk a lot about debt. That's what your website and stuff specialized around.

[00:02:30] I'm a periodontist in Louisiana and I've got your typical doctor story about having a bunch of

[00:02:38] school debt and how my wife and I got out from under it and now we're

[00:02:42] taking a different path to financial freedom right now.

[00:02:46] Awesome. Well, that's an introduction to what we're talking about today, which is all around

[00:02:51] taking on debt, feeling stuck with debt. So it's going to be a great conversation. I'm excited for

[00:02:55] this one. We'll jump right into it here with everyone deals with debt one way or another.

[00:03:00] It comes into everyone's life in some sort of way. How do you feel about debt in your own

[00:03:05] life? Well, I've changed a little bit. When I got out of school at 05, I was a big Dave

[00:03:11] Ramsey fan and pretty much him and Susie Orman were about the only big people back then.

[00:03:18] You were talking 20 years ago and I had two weeks before I got out of my training,

[00:03:25] the practice I was supposed to join fell through. That job fell through.

[00:03:30] And I don't know if you know anything about dental school or medical school, but they don't

[00:03:33] teach you the important things. Number one about money and number two about how to run a

[00:03:38] business or practice. So my wife and I, we had a two month old, $300,000 of student loan

[00:03:45] debt and had already started a, and I already bought a home like an interest only loan.

[00:03:53] So you can imagine how we felt with not knowing what to do, not knowing how to do anything

[00:03:59] and having all that debt. So luckily I was able to follow Dave Ramsey's plan

[00:04:04] and built up my practice. It took us about seven and a half years to pay off the student

[00:04:11] loans in that first house. And I really think, looking back, that Dave is great for the masses.

[00:04:21] He's really good, but people that want a little bit more out of life, they want to take some

[00:04:26] risk, which we can get into if you want to. I do think there's some different types of debt

[00:04:33] that are potentially good as long as you know what you're doing. But for most people,

[00:04:37] student loan debt, of course, credit card debt, consumer debt, I'm totally against it.

[00:04:42] Kyle Sivers Yeah, those consumer debts, like you said,

[00:04:44] credit cards are the ones you got to stay away from. It's just not good for your financial

[00:04:48] life. And I like what you said there, maybe let's touch on Dave Ramsey for just a second.

[00:04:53] You talked about kind of going beyond Dave Ramsey. Do you think that's something everyone

[00:04:57] should do? Because people ask me, they're like, Oh, what's your opinion on Dave Ramsey?

[00:05:00] I tell them I do a financial podcast and I'm like, well, I listened to him for years. He

[00:05:05] started, got me in the right headspace. But I don't listen to him anymore. Do you think

[00:05:10] that's a typical journey? Kyle Sivers

[00:05:12] Well, in my opinion, I think that people know what's best for them. And I like to take bits

[00:05:22] and pieces from people. I've listened to Dave Ramsey, I've listened to Grant Cardone,

[00:05:27] I've listened to Robert Kiyosaki, I've listened to all these different people.

[00:05:31] I think that you can learn from each person. But at the end of the day, it comes down to what

[00:05:37] you're most comfortable with. Because if somebody is telling you something that just goes against

[00:05:42] all of your beliefs and just makes you feel sick at your stomach, the best thing for me

[00:05:49] is not going to be the best thing for Skyler and vice versa. So I just think that people

[00:05:55] need to listen to their options and then do what's best for them, taking into account

[00:06:01] their gut feeling. Kyle Sivers

[00:06:03] Yeah, I love the idea of do what's best for you. That's one thing. When I started this

[00:06:06] podcast, I was like, I don't want to be the only person you're listening to. No one else

[00:06:10] should be the only person you're listening to. You need to get those pieces of information

[00:06:14] from all sorts of different areas. I love that. And I think that's a great way to take your

[00:06:18] financial advice. But also if you don't know where to get started, listening to Dave Ramsey,

[00:06:22] like you said, he's great for the masses. He'll get you going on some sort of a spending

[00:06:26] plan and things like that. So it's a good place to get started.

[00:06:29] Kyle Sivers Yeah. And think about it. Most people

[00:06:30] coming out of college or dental school, medical school, all school, they go from

[00:06:37] making nothing to sometimes making six figures. Almost like these pro athletes go from

[00:06:44] nothing to millions of dollars. And if you don't know how to handle that, it's a great idea

[00:06:50] to use his plan to start working through getting the budget, paying off that debt. At least you

[00:06:56] have a foundation. And then once you learn more and get, because as you know from the Bible,

[00:07:02] too much is given, much is required. So if you're given a lot, you don't really know

[00:07:08] what to do. We'll start with the basics, build that cornerstone. And then as you go off

[00:07:13] and maybe try different things that are risky or lose money, well, you can always go back

[00:07:18] to where she started from. Kyle Sivers

[00:07:20] Yeah. I like the idea of set the foundation. I wrote that in my notes, too, of set the

[00:07:24] foundation and then build upon it with other people, other people's stories and things like

[00:07:28] that. So you mentioned high earners, people that maybe come out of college, weren't making

[00:07:32] much and now they're making six figures or more. People with a high income, they may think,

[00:07:37] oh, I have a lot of money coming in monthly to afford my life on monthly payments. They

[00:07:41] have the credit card debt. They have an auto loan. They have their big mortgage payment.

[00:07:45] Is there risk with debt when you're a high earner or can you really just afford life

[00:07:49] on a monthly payment? Kyle Sivers

[00:07:51] Yeah, that's a good question. I think that most people get over their head, especially for

[00:07:59] people that go to school longer. So let's say you're a doctor or you're an attorney,

[00:08:04] well, you may not get out until you're 30, start making money, but you're looking back at

[00:08:08] your friends that have been out since they've been 21, 22. And so you've delayed all this

[00:08:15] time. You look back, they have the cars, they have the boats, they have the nice house,

[00:08:20] the country club membership. And it's like, well, wait a minute, I'm a doctor or I'm a

[00:08:25] professional or whatever. I deserve all this. Yet we're starting behind the eight ball. Plus

[00:08:30] we have a lot of debt. And if you have that mindset, then it's going to be very,

[00:08:35] very difficult to build wealth because it's really hard to delay that gratification. It's

[00:08:41] hard to continue living like a student, continue living like a resident to get all that paid off.

[00:08:46] Because you'll start off in the house and then what happens? You have kids, typically,

[00:08:52] you get a bigger house, you upgrade the cars, you upgrade your friends,

[00:08:58] get a private school if you do that. So everything just keeps getting more and

[00:09:04] more expensive. I look back when I got out and our kids were small and our budget was

[00:09:10] just like literally nothing. And now it's so much bigger just because of a lifestyle creep.

[00:09:16] And we're at a different stage of our lives right now, because about every five years,

[00:09:22] your life is going to completely change. You talking to a 10 and 11 year old kid versus you

[00:09:28] talking to a 15 and 16 year old kid, that's totally different. And what you think is going

[00:09:35] to happen in 15 years or 20 years and 30, typically it's not. So I typically like to look at five

[00:09:42] year increments. If you set a 30 year goal, it's very hard to attain that. But if you set

[00:09:49] shorter ones, three, four, five years, you're much more likely to attain it.

[00:09:53] Yeah. And I like the thought that came to my mind is right at the beginning of that of

[00:09:56] keeping your, or get your foundation in place. So pay off those loans before you really start

[00:10:01] going for those nice things or stuff like that. Because if you are dragging around that burden of

[00:10:07] either student loan debt or other things like that, or a big mortgage that you couldn't afford

[00:10:11] or something like that, and then you're continuing to increase your life on that,

[00:10:14] that's when it gets even more difficult and when the risk of debt gets even higher.

[00:10:19] What kind of thought should go through people's mind when they're thinking about

[00:10:22] taking on debt? What kind of risks do people need to be aware of?

[00:10:25] Well, I guess it depends on what kind of debt is it. Is it a fixed 30 year mortgage or 15 year

[00:10:35] mortgage on a house? Or is it a 25% credit card?

[00:10:43] Let's start with the consumer items. So yeah, like credit cards or an auto loan or

[00:10:46] things like that. Where do those things get risky?

[00:10:49] Well, I think that if you have no clue how to handle money or budget and you just spend all that.

[00:10:58] Again, you know yourself better than anybody else. You know your way. So you just have to

[00:11:04] look at it. If you're the type of person like me who literally I log in every day and we

[00:11:10] have six credit cards, we have three for the business and three personal, I pay them off

[00:11:16] every day. But the reason why I look at it every day is because we've been hacked

[00:11:20] in the past. So I want to make sure that every charge lines up. Plus we have kids

[00:11:26] sometimes using the cards for stuff, maybe it's gas or restaurant or whatever.

[00:11:31] So again, for the first 10 years of my life, we had debit cards.

[00:11:36] But now things have changed because again, I've become more financially responsible and

[00:11:44] I understand how to do it. Plus I understand myself, but if you can't do that, then

[00:11:50] stick with debit cards or something like that. So again, I think it starts with

[00:11:57] who you are and how much you think you could handle because you're not going to walk into a

[00:12:01] gym if you haven't worked out in 20 years and start bench pressing 300 pounds. You have to

[00:12:07] start small and work your way up. I like that. You don't start maxing out

[00:12:12] machines on your first day. So take it small. And I think that's something that often people

[00:12:17] can feel behind in their finances. So they feel like they got to rush right up to that max weight

[00:12:22] or whatever to keep the reference going. But like you said, getting that foundation,

[00:12:27] me and my wife for like the first year of our marriage only used a debit card.

[00:12:32] And it was kind of, it was kind of me being too in on the Dave Ramsey side of things

[00:12:36] that I was like, this is the way we're going to do it. But I honestly think it

[00:12:38] was beneficial because it helped us get that foundation of knowing where our money's going

[00:12:42] because it's coming out of our account right away. And then we moved on to the credit cards

[00:12:46] kind of similar to what you said, but I like how you said that you check them every day

[00:12:51] because that's just your experience and that's okay. Like if someone checks them once a month

[00:12:56] because they're comfortable with that and that's how they handle it, that's okay.

[00:12:59] I love the idea that there's like individualism to how we handle our money. And especially

[00:13:04] when it comes to managing those consumer items that can cause debt. So that's fantastic.

[00:13:09] What kind of, let's talk about, you mentioned the mortgage was your first response to

[00:13:13] what you were thinking about talking about with this. What are some risks that people

[00:13:17] have to consider when looking at mortgages or those bigger loan items?

[00:13:21] Yeah. And I really haven't heard of anybody talk about, I guess, how much,

[00:13:30] your monthly payment should be that's better probably than Dave, at least starting out.

[00:13:36] Because the banks or whoever, they'll loan you the max and you're just like, oh gosh,

[00:13:41] I can get a loan for $500,000 but if you plug in Dave's formula, maybe it's just 250.

[00:13:49] And that keeps you like, okay, well then no more than 25% of your take-home pay,

[00:13:54] 15 year mortgage. I think that's, again, that's a great place to start, especially if

[00:13:58] you've never owned a home before. Because most people that, I lived in an apartment for 11 years

[00:14:05] during my training and I'm thinking, oh, I'm wasting all this money but I'm thinking, okay,

[00:14:11] if I have $1,000 mortgage payment, people will compare that to their apartment payment,

[00:14:16] $1,000 but you have no clue what goes on with homeownership. So you do that with

[00:14:22] maintenance and repairs and taxes and insurance is totally different. It's like

[00:14:26] comparing apples to oranges. But so I think that sticking with his, no more than 25%,

[00:14:35] the monthly payment of your take-home pay, I think that's a great place to start until you,

[00:14:40] again, get to the point where you understand what's going on and go from there.

[00:14:45] Kyle Yeah, so like that's your good foundation almost that Dave Ramsey's mortgage advice is

[00:14:51] the debit card of the mortgage world in a way. Like it's the safer, easier approach to take.

[00:14:56] What's your opinion on 15 versus 30 years? That's something people should

[00:15:00] automatically go one way or is there room for both?

[00:15:02] Dave Again, I think if you're just starting off

[00:15:07] and you don't want to get in over your head, I think the 15 year is good. And then you have

[00:15:12] to realize that Dave Ramsey, again, is speaking to the masses. He's speaking to

[00:15:20] the majority of people that are employees or they're self-employed, probably most of

[00:15:25] our employees. And they like their safety, they like their 401k, they like the benefits

[00:15:30] they get from their job and they like paying off that house in 15 years if possible.

[00:15:39] And again, if that's right for you. But you have to look at what Dave teaches

[00:15:44] is everything, all your money from your household, it comes from you trading time

[00:15:50] for money, either you or your spouse. And again, that's the majority of America.

[00:15:58] And again, there's nothing wrong with that. And I had a snow skiing accident after about

[00:16:04] 12 years that I hurt my hand. That made me realize that it's kind of hard to treat patients

[00:16:10] without hands, that I needed to do something else. Well, I never heard about anything else

[00:16:15] from Dave about other sources of income, about real estate, about passive income. And

[00:16:22] that got me on the journey of finding out more about it. And so to go back to your question

[00:16:29] in 15 to 30 years, I have a 30 year mortgage now, but I've got a mobile home park

[00:16:37] that pays the mortgage. So that's a different way of thinking. If you have other sources

[00:16:43] of income and you can do that, well, why not let something else pay off your mortgage instead

[00:16:50] of you? So again, it comes down to knowing how to handle things. It comes down to knowing what

[00:16:57] you're doing. I mean, just that statement right there took years and years and years

[00:17:02] to get to that point, defining people to work with, to partner with, to know and how to buy

[00:17:07] real estate and this and that. So it's just not something you can just flip a switch and do.

[00:17:11] But if you can get to that point, then your money is worth a whole lot more now.

[00:17:19] So let's just say your mortgage payment is two grand a month and you get a 30 year mortgage.

[00:17:27] Fast forward, and you don't refinance or anything, so fast forward 29 years from now.

[00:17:34] So you have one year of paying off your home. Your mortgage is still two grand a month.

[00:17:38] How much do you think your $2,000 29 years from now is going to be worth?

[00:17:44] Definitely more. I hope interest doesn't keep up like it was, but if you have a moment like that,

[00:17:49] then yeah, a good amount. So your $2,000 now spending power 29 years from now may only be

[00:17:56] $1,000. You may only be able to buy $1,000 worth of stuff. So the point is,

[00:18:04] even though your mortgage payment is going to be staying the same, your dollars aren't going to

[00:18:10] be worth near what they are today. So why would I rush off and pay with all of the dollars now

[00:18:16] that are worth more to something that inflation is going to road away from me? And again,

[00:18:21] I've got an asset, a mobile home park that's going to go up in value. It's going to pay it

[00:18:28] off. Again, it's a different way of thinking. So to answer your question, if you know how to

[00:18:33] get other things to pay for your mortgage, I would say a 30 year. If it's on you, which probably

[00:18:40] 99.9% of people that are listening to this, then I would say probably a 15 year and then

[00:18:46] life goes on. Yeah. I like that approach of 15 if you're on your own and if you're going

[00:18:51] to get a 30, you got to find something to help you take care of it. And you mentioned

[00:18:55] your mobile home park that you have an investment in, but there's also like,

[00:18:59] you could put, if your interest rate is low enough, there's ways to just use the stock

[00:19:02] market and keep it simple. So there's a lot of ways to keep it easy, but I really like the

[00:19:07] mindset of if you have a 30 year use something else to help you pay off the mortgage. That's

[00:19:12] fantastic. Let's talk about getting out of debt or having debt. Should people always have debt?

[00:19:18] Is it something that we should just be always living with or should we be striving to get

[00:19:21] out of it? It depends on what the debt's for. I've got debt on all of the different

[00:19:28] properties that I have, but again, that debt is being paid down by my tenants, not by me.

[00:19:38] But if somebody just has a bunch of credit card debt and home loans and boat loans and everything

[00:19:43] else where it's on you, then no, I recommend that you get out from under all of that debt,

[00:19:48] that credit card debt, because it's just the most important thing at the end of the day

[00:19:52] is your time. And if you have all this debt, then guess what? You have to trade time for

[00:19:57] money to pay it off. Yeah, exactly. You have to trade that time right back for money to

[00:20:03] pay it off and it's growing interest and all that sort of stuff. So make sure you get out

[00:20:07] from underneath those ones. What if someone feels stuck? What if they feel like that credit card

[00:20:11] debt is too large, it's growing on its, it just keeps growing. It never seems to get smaller.

[00:20:16] How do people get out of debt when they feel stuck? Well, I think that if it gets to that

[00:20:22] point, then they need to get, if they can't do it on their own, then they need to find

[00:20:26] help. Whether that's somebody associated with Dave Ramsey, whether that's a family member,

[00:20:31] a friend, something like that. And probably a good idea to take Dave's advice and cut up the

[00:20:36] credit cards, quit using them. Kind of like if you're trying to lose weight and you're

[00:20:41] addicted to chocolate and your pantry is full of chocolate with just that temptation

[00:20:46] of it being there, knowing that you can't, you're not supposed to eat it.

[00:20:50] So if you have those credit cards there, knowing you're not supposed to use them,

[00:20:54] you're going to be tempted. And especially if you're married, it's great to get on the same,

[00:21:00] it's hard if you're not both on the same page to get where you're going. Because one person is

[00:21:05] going one way and one person is going the other. Yeah. When one person feels like, hey,

[00:21:10] we got to get out of this and they don't even mention it to the other spouse, then it's just,

[00:21:14] you're continually colliding, you're fighting, you're not having good conversations about it.

[00:21:18] But that's great. I love that. Get out, do what you need to do, actually take steps

[00:21:22] towards it is what I pulled from that. Get rid of the credit cards if those are the

[00:21:26] problem child in your debt portfolio or something like that. I have one more final

[00:21:31] question here, but I want to hear a little bit more about what you do as the debt-free doctor.

[00:21:35] The last question we'll come to it in a second just to let you start thinking about it is,

[00:21:38] what do you wish you would have done sooner when it comes to money? But if you'd like

[00:21:42] to share just a little bit about what you do with your debt-free doctor and how that works

[00:21:48] and what people can chat with you about and things like that. Yeah, I pretty much just educate

[00:21:54] high-income earners about my journey and about a lot of things that we've been talking about,

[00:21:59] how to basically exit the rat race with passive income. And I just use what I,

[00:22:05] my personal experience, I'm not telling you something that I don't practice what I preach

[00:22:10] because I do and share my experience about how to use real estate, how to find real estate

[00:22:17] deals for passive income and what that could do to free up your time. Because I want everybody

[00:22:23] to, I think if you make good money, if you make a decent six-figure salary, you should be

[00:22:29] to the point within eight to 10 years to be where work is optional for you if you choose

[00:22:36] to do that. Yeah, I like that. And people listen to my podcast and have heard it on

[00:22:41] multiple episodes of take what other people have done and mirror that, like take what they've

[00:22:46] done and iterate on their successes. So what you're doing is you're sharing your successes,

[00:22:51] your story with people. So if they join in with you and then they can learn what you've done

[00:22:56] and then they can mirror in their own lives. So that's really cool. That's awesome that

[00:23:00] you're sharing your story. That's fantastic. But let's wrap it up here with my last question

[00:23:04] that I like to ask people is what do you wish you would have known sooner when it comes to money?

[00:23:09] I think the Robert Kiyosaki's cashflow quadrant concept. And for those of you that don't know,

[00:23:16] it's four quadrants and on the left side he calls it the poor side. And that's where the

[00:23:22] majority of people are. You're an E, you're an employee or you're an S, you're self-employed.

[00:23:27] And that's how most people operate. They trade time for money. If they quit working,

[00:23:34] money doesn't come in. Their income, their active income is the highest tax income there is.

[00:23:42] So I wish I would have just learned more about how people make money, how I make money versus

[00:23:48] the right side, which he calls the rich side of the quadrant is the B, the business owners

[00:23:54] to where they have all these employees working for them. So they don't have to be there.

[00:23:58] Think of a gym owner. You don't have to be there. You can go off and travel or do whatever.

[00:24:04] You can have people, a manager and employees. And then you have the investor, which is the

[00:24:09] ultimate goal to where basically your money is making money for you. You don't have to

[00:24:14] trade time for money. People in those two quadrants, those sources of income are the

[00:24:19] lowest taxed bracket. And that's why you hear about all these billionaires that don't pay

[00:24:24] much in taxes because they're on the right side of the quadrant. So I wish I would have known

[00:24:30] that whole concept earlier, and then I would have been focused more on getting from the left,

[00:24:36] the employee self-employed side to the right, the business owner, the investor side

[00:24:42] much sooner than later. Yeah. Well, that's fantastic. I like the mindset that puts you

[00:24:49] in where you're investing your money, your money is making you money. That's a great place

[00:24:53] to get to. So as I've started asking this question, it's one teaching me a bunch of things that I need

[00:24:58] to learn more about. So thank you. But this question is super insightful for people because

[00:25:02] I'm sure people younger than me listening that could use this to get started. Now they're

[00:25:06] going to go look up a new concept and it's going to help them get going a little bit earlier

[00:25:10] in life. So yeah, thank you so much for joining me. This has been a really fun conversation. I

[00:25:15] appreciate you coming on. Yeah, happy to do it. Appreciate your invitation. Thank you so much to

[00:25:30] Dr. Jeff Anzalone for coming on today's episode. That was a really great conversation and I'm glad

[00:25:35] he was able to join me. And I know I learned a lot, so I hope you were able to take some

[00:25:38] away from today's conversation. A couple of key takeaways that I wanted to talk about that could

[00:25:42] impact you as you were listening to today's interview. First is that knowledge is extremely

[00:25:47] empowering. You want to make sure you understand your relationship with debt. Do you know

[00:25:52] what you want to do with debt? Do you know how you want to pay off debt? We don't know

[00:25:57] what we want to do if we don't understand debt at a base level. So that's why it's important for

[00:26:01] us to talk about it with our friends and family. And one conversation I think is important to know,

[00:26:07] especially when you're in a marriage or working together on money with someone,

[00:26:11] is whose debt is it? Though you may work together with money with a spouse and it's both

[00:26:16] of your debt, maybe that's what you consider, but whose debt is it really? Think about this.

[00:26:20] My wife Rebecca and I, we manage our money together. We're very intertwined when it comes

[00:26:25] to our money knowledge and knowing what's going on with our money. But Rebecca's student loans are a

[00:26:29] great story of this. I was only looking at the math, and she was considering how it was her

[00:26:33] education that these loans were tied to and her job that these loans are tied to. And she

[00:26:38] didn't want to feel like she had to work forever because I was looking at the math of when

[00:26:42] would be the best way to pay off the loan so we could use our money in other ways and

[00:26:45] things like that. Whereas I was only looking at the math, she helped me realize and

[00:26:49] undercover the behavior and emotions behind loans. So make sure you're talking about it

[00:26:53] so that you can actually understand how debt impacts you beyond just the numbers.

[00:26:57] Education is extremely important so that you can make the correct decisions because you don't know

[00:27:01] what you don't know and that's a great place to go have a money talk with a co-worker or a

[00:27:05] friend or come on the podcast. Let's talk about money together. I think that would be fantastic.

[00:27:10] Second, a great takeaway you can have is that you have to plan for financial growth.

[00:27:15] I like the idea of planning life in five-year increments and I think that's

[00:27:18] because you really don't know much beyond that and so much changes. Think back five years ago,

[00:27:23] could you have planned every single thing right up to this moment? And the answer is no. So by

[00:27:28] setting achievable goals and adapting financial strategies along the way, you can definitely

[00:27:33] figure out how you're going to manage debt and work towards that stability that you want.

[00:27:37] And that's why I think the five-year plan was really, really beneficial. So as you're

[00:27:40] building that plan, make sure you're writing it down. You could go listen to episode 56

[00:27:45] and episode six about the importance of a plan and about writing a plan down. So make sure you

[00:27:50] go check out episode six that talks about the importance of a written plan. It provides clarity

[00:27:54] and focus on your goals, helps you reduce stress by knowing your roadmap for the future,

[00:27:58] and it helps make dreams more tangible and achievable. You can also stay way more on

[00:28:02] track and be way more accountable to your goals when they're written down. It demands

[00:28:06] dedication and time towards that actual planning and encourages you to keep the goals

[00:28:11] in manageable steps. And you're also able to be flexible. You're able to acknowledge that life's

[00:28:15] unpredictable because you have your plan written down, you can say, oh, we're not going to quite

[00:28:19] hit this one and that's okay because we didn't foresee X crazy circumstance three years ago

[00:28:24] when we wrote this plan down. So make sure you're taking into consideration that you're

[00:28:28] going to have to be flexible when it comes to your written plan. But that's why it's so

[00:28:31] important to have it written down so that we know how we actually need to adapt and adjust.

[00:28:35] Again, I want to harp on that flexibility is so important. You have to make sure you have

[00:28:39] those foundational principles like we talked about in the interview, Dave Ramsey can be that good

[00:28:43] foundation and then you can flex around that. But you won't know how to flex if you don't have

[00:28:48] your foundation in place. So make sure you have your foundation there because the importance

[00:28:52] of flexibility cannot be understated. We have to maintain the foundation. But what if you

[00:28:56] have an expensive month? What if you have a month where your power bill is way bigger than

[00:29:00] you thought it would be? What are you going to do? And that's where it's important to

[00:29:03] have that element of flexibility. And by incorporating all the knowledge out there,

[00:29:08] there's so much knowledge out there with different podcasts, different resources and

[00:29:11] staying true to your core beliefs. You can figure out the plan that works best for you

[00:29:15] and keep it in line with what you want to do. And you can flex with that plan

[00:29:19] and build the plan for you because that's what's so important. Money is so unique.

[00:29:23] That's why it's important to listen to other shows, listen to my show,

[00:29:26] talk to other people about money. Because when you work together,

[00:29:29] the collaborative approach is what can really help you when it comes to managing your money

[00:29:33] better. And both being collaborative with a spouse and with friends is something that can

[00:29:37] be really awesome because I don't care how you manage the actual numbers when it comes

[00:29:41] to being married. You have to be emotionally and behaviorally aligned with a spouse in order

[00:29:47] to do well with your money. If you manage money separately, whatever. But if you have

[00:29:50] different goals, you're going to continue going in those separate ways. And money can be a

[00:29:54] main driving force behind divorce, financial struggle, marital problems, things like that.

[00:29:59] And it's important to have open communication and shared decision making so that you can

[00:30:03] tackle debt challenges or any other financial challenge that might come your way together.

[00:30:07] My last thing that can be impactful from today's conversation is to continually be learning.

[00:30:11] Jeff encouraged all of us to have a mindset of growth, a mindset of learning,

[00:30:15] and stay curious. Listen to other podcasts, listen to this show, talk to other people about

[00:30:19] money, and empower yourself to make confident financial choices by having a wealth of knowledge

[00:30:24] around you both in your mind but also a great amount of people that you can talk to. But

[00:30:28] overall, the conversation was fantastic today. But that's just the impact that you can take

[00:30:32] away from it. I have a lot more in today's episode and up next, we're talking about the

[00:30:36] money talking points. Okay, so we got two great money talking points today. And the first one is

[00:30:49] you can't change your financial situation overnight. So what small step do you need to take today

[00:30:54] to begin to change your financial situation? And for me, this one would be a small step,

[00:30:59] probably around, I don't know, given with the theme of the episode today being around debt.

[00:31:03] I think a small step that I need to take today is to plan out our debt plan. When are we

[00:31:09] going to be debt free? Because I don't currently have that plan because right now we're still

[00:31:13] taking on some more student loans. We have one more semester of student loans to take on for

[00:31:17] Rebecca, so I don't have everything outlined. That's the next small step. And you may be saying,

[00:31:22] well, that's a bigger step than my small step that came to my mind. That's okay.

[00:31:25] Figure out whatever small step you need to do. Is your small step logging into your mobile

[00:31:30] banking app and setting it up so your credit cards are tracked within your credit union's

[00:31:34] mobile banking? That's great. Maybe you only need to sign into one credit card account

[00:31:38] because you want to check it. And that's your small step to begin checking it more frequently.

[00:31:42] So figure out your small step, talk about it with a friend, and then go and do it

[00:31:46] because that's how you begin making those changes to overcome and change your financial

[00:31:50] situation. The second money talking point is how much money is automatically going out the

[00:31:54] door? And this is a thought exercise because if you begin to look at it, you'd be like, wow,

[00:31:58] 80% of my income is automatically disappearing. And that's crazy. Hopefully it's not that high,

[00:32:03] but this allows you to look at the numbers and say, wow, there is more money disappearing

[00:32:08] automatically than I thought. So it's a great way to gain perspective on your finances. So

[00:32:14] go look at your spreadsheet, go look at however you track your expenses because as you've heard

[00:32:18] me say on many, many episodes, tracking your expenses is the first place to start.

[00:32:22] So go track your expenses and then figure out how much money is automatically going

[00:32:25] out of my bank account because that's going to offer a real perspective shift to say, hey,

[00:32:29] I need to get this in a line to where I want to go. But coming up on the rest of this episode,

[00:32:33] I have a couple of sections that I think are really key to take away from my conversation

[00:32:37] with Jeff today. So first I want to start with the day factor. All right, welcome to

[00:32:50] this segment. I'm calling the day factor and this has to do with Jeff's initial approach

[00:32:54] being heavily influenced by Dave Ramsey because aren't we all a little influenced by Dave,

[00:32:59] but it's okay to move on from Dave Ramsey, look to other resources and continue learning

[00:33:03] more. It's something that all of us in the personal finance space would go through,

[00:33:06] I would say, because there's always an element of Dave Ramsey in all of us. We all probably

[00:33:11] started there in some sense or at least we had some influence in our family, in our money

[00:33:17] talks with our family, with our parents about Dave Ramsey. So everyone knows who he is,

[00:33:21] especially if you've dipped your toe in any sort of personal finance creator space

[00:33:26] and things like that. So it's okay to know who he is. It's okay to be influenced by Dave

[00:33:30] and say, hey, I hate that because of Dave Ramsey. That's okay, but it's okay to move on

[00:33:34] and begin to learn from other people. Something that the day factor plays a huge role in is if we

[00:33:38] are encountering student loan debt or challenges in managing our finance, because a lot of people

[00:33:42] deal with this, but Dave has a solid plan to get out of debt. It's worked for people

[00:33:46] and it can be hardcore, but sometimes that's what we need to break over those mental hurdles

[00:33:50] and to get over them and get through them. But the adoption of Dave Ramsey's plan and

[00:33:54] its suitability for the masses is because it's so broad that people can't adopt it.

[00:33:58] And Dave sticks to it very intensely because he's seen it work for so many people. So

[00:34:03] it'll work to get you going, but that's when that foundation piece comes into play.

[00:34:07] Do you understand your foundation and where you need to start with your money? And then you can

[00:34:11] take it from there and iterate on it and build on it. Because once you have that

[00:34:14] foundation in place, you can begin to build your own perspectives and build your own pillars

[00:34:19] on top of that foundation. So make sure you find the foundation, like ask yourself questions.

[00:34:24] Do you like a credit card? Do you hate credit cards? What do you want to stick to

[00:34:27] and what kind of habits do you want to figure out and build skills around? So

[00:34:31] ask yourself key questions that maybe you can challenge Dave's advice a little bit. But the

[00:34:35] Dave Factor is definitely something that I think all of us can take away from today's

[00:34:39] interview because he has an influence on a little bit of everybody when it comes to our

[00:34:42] personal finance habits and foundation. Up next, I want to take on a section with

[00:34:47] a question about what if you make a lot of money? So what if you make a ton of money?

[00:35:01] What if you're a very high earner? Well, are you immune to the risks of debt?

[00:35:05] I would say no, it's even riskier because you have more money to go out automatically on

[00:35:09] monthly payments if you are a high earner. It can be a huge pitfall if you rely on monthly

[00:35:14] payments and it's important to consider time and how early you need to start and how much money

[00:35:18] you need to get going in to the market. So what happens if something goes very, very wrong?

[00:35:23] That's where the risk of debt comes out to play. And we're going to throw back to another

[00:35:27] very early episode in episode number two. It was a little rough. I know those early ones were

[00:35:32] a little, little rough, but what happens if something goes wrong? That's when an emergency

[00:35:37] fund comes into play. That's also when these large monthly payments can come into play in a

[00:35:42] really big way, because what if something happens and you need all your money from one paycheck,

[00:35:47] but half of it's automatically disappearing the day after you get your paycheck?

[00:35:51] So insert a challenge into your life and say, what would happen if this happened? And then

[00:35:56] say, are the monthly payments causing me to be at more risk than I should be at? So that's

[00:36:01] the risk that debt can have when you're a high earner. It's all your money just disappearing

[00:36:05] automatically. And then you don't have any when you need it. And like I started out,

[00:36:08] debt is something that influences all of us. So do you have a debt management plan?

[00:36:12] Let's talk about that next. So to begin thinking about your debt management plan,

[00:36:26] you should really evaluate whether debt should always be in your life or eliminated.

[00:36:30] And does anyone really want debt to always be a present factor in their life?

[00:36:34] So some questions or homework that you might take away from today's episode. If you want

[00:36:37] to think about your debt plan, how does that make you feel? Does it make you feel like you

[00:36:41] have to work because of debt? Do you feel like debt is restricting your life choices?

[00:36:46] Can you not do something because of a monthly payment, like change your job, move, etc.? Do

[00:36:51] you have to drive? Do you have to go to work in order to drive things like that because

[00:36:56] you're in debt? So consider how debt plays a role in the decisions you're making.

[00:37:00] And consider the purpose and the nature of the debt. And it's weight on you because

[00:37:04] that's where you can begin to realize, oh, my debt management plan needs to be built around

[00:37:09] eliminating debt out of my life. So make sure you consider those questions that I asked and build

[00:37:13] your debt management plan. But what are you going to do when you hit those hurdles? You

[00:37:16] have that debt hurdle right in front of you. How do you jump over it? Let's talk about that

[00:37:20] next. All right, you've hit one of those debt hurdles and you're ready to jump right over

[00:37:33] it. What are some strategies to help you get out of feeling stuck when it comes to debt?

[00:37:38] So here let me just go through a couple real quick and then we'll talk about a few

[00:37:40] of them. One is to create a list of your debts. Two, prioritize which ones you need

[00:37:44] to get rid of. Three, consider the snowball or avalanche methods. Four, track your expenses so

[00:37:49] you know where you can save. Five, negotiate with creditors, which is a throwback to episode 98

[00:37:54] about DIY credit card debt reduction with Kenny Goldie. So go back and listen to that one

[00:37:59] because that's a great one if you want to negotiate with creditors. Number six,

[00:38:02] get a money buddy and stay accountable to your goals. And number seven, eliminate credit

[00:38:05] cards altogether if they're just a trap for you. So those are some great ones. I like

[00:38:09] the consider the snowball or avalanche methods. Do you need a more behavioral approach to

[00:38:13] motivate you towards your debt payoff or do you just want to keep it simple with the math and

[00:38:17] consider the avalanche method? Again, tracking your expenses is very important. It's come up

[00:38:22] time and time again and I think it's a great place for people to start because it helps you

[00:38:25] get out of the mindset of feeling like you have to budget every single dollar because tracking

[00:38:29] is going to help you see where your money's going automatically. And then of course one

[00:38:33] of the main hurdles is making sure that you're aligned with your spouse because if you're not,

[00:38:37] maybe one of you has taken out more debt while the other is trying to get out of debt and

[00:38:40] that's not going to go anywhere fast. So make sure you're seeking guidance and aligning with

[00:38:45] a spouse on your financial goals. Talk about money together. The only way to do well with

[00:38:49] money is by talking about it. But let's wrap up today's episode next. Thank you again so much

[00:39:03] to Jeff Anzaloon for coming on today's episode. Understanding our relationship with debt

[00:39:08] isn't just about the numbers, it's about understanding ourselves and the behavior behind

[00:39:11] money. The story of Rebecca and I figuring out how to handle her student loans really drives

[00:39:15] this point home for me. We gotta dig deep and ask ourselves who's debt it truly is,

[00:39:20] how it shapes our lives, the weight that it bears on each one of us especially if you're

[00:39:23] in a marriage. But strategic planning is the beacon of hope amidst financial challenges

[00:39:28] especially when it comes to debt. To view your life in five-year increments,

[00:39:32] it'll also help you a ton because you really can't plan much beyond that. Sure you can

[00:39:35] have those really long range goals but your plan being in five-year chunks can be a great

[00:39:40] idea. It gives us flexibility to build upon that foundation we've set. But collaboration

[00:39:44] is key both with content creators, make sure you're reaching out to people and providing

[00:39:48] questions and things so that we can talk about money on all of the platforms. But when we talk

[00:39:52] about money together it strengthens our ability to work on things together. So through

[00:39:57] continuous learning, connecting, having money talks with people, we empower ourselves to

[00:40:01] make confident financial decisions that shape our financial journey. So make sure to have a money

[00:40:05] talk with your friends about today's episode. As we navigate debt management plans remember

[00:40:10] it isn't always linear. You sometimes might take a small step back but make sure you're

[00:40:13] taking small steps forward like today's money talking point. So embrace the journey,

[00:40:17] keep all of the knowledge around you and really maintain flexibility and build a better financial

[00:40:22] future. Be sure to head over and check out skylerfilming.com and sign up for my email

[00:40:26] list. But I have some great news that I want to share. I recently won a grant for my podcast

[00:40:30] and financial coaching business so I'm excited to see the changes that this will allow me to

[00:40:34] bring forward to my podcast. I have a lot of fun ideas in the hopper and if you want to

[00:40:38] see anything head over to skylerfilming.com slash feedback and let me know. I would love to hear

[00:40:43] anything from anyone of you listening, how I can improve the show, guest suggestions or just

[00:40:47] overall ideas and feedback. I'm open to any suggestions. I'd love to hear it but thank you

[00:40:51] for listening to Money Talk with Skylar Fleming. I'm your host Skylar Fleming. Have a great week.

[00:40:55] Thank you for listening to Money Talk with Skylar Fleming. This show is provided for

[00:40:59] informational and entertainment purposes and may not be specific to your unique situation.

[00:41:04] Please be sure to do additional research before making any financial decisions.