How Friction Helps Your Finances with Soon Yu - 147

[00:00:00] Should things really be as seamless as possible? How can friction help your finances? Let's talk about it today.

[00:00:06] Welcome to Money Talk with Skyler Fleming, where we all do better with money by talking about it. Let's get talking.

[00:00:12] Welcome to today's episode of Money Talk with Skyler Fleming. I'm your host Skyler Fleming and today I'm joined by Soon Yu to talk all about how friction can be a good thing.

[00:00:20] Throughout the entire interview, I was continuously shocked and surprised by all the great examples Soon was providing of helpful friction.

[00:00:27] There are really a lot of points of friction that do make our experiences so much better and I promise once you start listening to today's interview, they're going to click for you just like they did for me.

[00:00:36] So I want to see how can we apply this to our money as well. You're going to really enjoy today's interview soon and I know I learned a lot and you will as well.

[00:00:43] But stay tuned for after the interview where I'm going to talk about a little bit more direct points of some of the ways you can put friction into your finances.

[00:00:50] The money talking points for today's episode are,

[00:00:53] What point of friction would I like to add to my life?

[00:00:56] And two, what areas are so seamless it's harmful?

[00:01:00] With the money talking points in mind, let's get talking.

[00:01:12] Hello everybody, welcome to today's interview on Money Talk with Skyler Fleming.

[00:01:17] Joining me today, I have Soon Yu and we're here to talk about friction, how it can help us in our lives, help us in our finances.

[00:01:23] And I was mentioning to Soon that I heard him on Stacking Benjamins a while back and wanted to talk about a similar topic about friction

[00:01:30] because I think it's something that I've applied more in my life since listening to him way back when.

[00:01:34] I can't even remember when that episode came out.

[00:01:36] But Soon, would you introduce yourself for everybody?

[00:01:38] Sure. My name is Soon Yu and I suppose I'm here mainly because I wrote a book.

[00:01:44] I've written a couple books.

[00:01:47] The book that we're probably going to talk most about today is Friction.

[00:01:50] And what it looks at is the idea and concept that not all friction is bad.

[00:01:56] There's actually some good friction out there.

[00:01:57] And how do we harness it and how do we introduce more of it?

[00:02:00] And how do we sometimes make our friends, our family, our employees, our customers actually work harder to actually make their experience and their connection with us even stronger?

[00:02:12] So that's my most recent book.

[00:02:14] But prior to that, I wrote a book on iconic businesses and brands and kind of reversed engineer.

[00:02:20] How do you actually create an iconic business yourself?

[00:02:23] Something that can actually stand the test of time.

[00:02:26] So, yeah, that's probably best known here for your audience as an author.

[00:02:29] But obviously, I think I'm also just a nerd when it comes to branding and customer experiences and stuff.

[00:02:36] So, yeah, that's me.

[00:02:38] Awesome. Sounds like your brand book might be one for the back end of my podcast that I need to go check out.

[00:02:42] So I have to keep looking into that.

[00:02:44] But today, like I said, we're talking about friction.

[00:02:46] This is going to be a fun conversation.

[00:02:48] And like you said, not all friction is bad.

[00:02:50] But what is maybe some examples of friction in our finances?

[00:02:54] Sure.

[00:02:54] I think let's just start off with the basic idea of money and economics.

[00:02:59] It's all based on scarcity, right?

[00:03:02] And so scarcity is a form of friction.

[00:03:06] If we didn't have scarcity and we had unlimited resources, unlimited funds, and at a snap of the finger, we could have everything we wanted in this world.

[00:03:17] If everyone could have everything they wanted and it was a world of abundance, then, yeah, there would be no friction and no need for money.

[00:03:32] Right?

[00:03:54] So, yeah.

[00:03:54] So, yeah, there's a lot of friction.

[00:03:55] Basically, you know, skinny, you know, skinny dipping might be a little too extreme.

[00:04:00] Maybe let's leave the friction of clothes there.

[00:04:02] Yeah.

[00:04:04] But here's some other examples of friction that unfortunately are created by humans that also are introduced into our financial system.

[00:04:15] Taxes, right?

[00:04:15] So, obviously, taxes are good.

[00:04:18] But tax code doesn't necessarily have to be – I think the U.S. tax code is, I want to believe, just under 7,000 pages.

[00:04:26] But if you add in all the other regulations and I think sublaws and bylaws and all that, it comes out to – if you want to be an expert, you actually have to read 75,000 pages worth of information.

[00:04:42] No, thank you.

[00:04:42] Yeah.

[00:04:44] Yeah.

[00:04:44] In Singapore, the actual tax code is less than four pages.

[00:04:48] It is a very simplistic way to actually – it's actually done for you automatically.

[00:04:54] So, that to me is a form of really bad friction that is introduced into our financial system.

[00:05:01] So, yeah.

[00:05:03] But you and I can talk a little bit about this.

[00:05:05] But there's actually also a lot of good friction that can be introduced to make us feel the value of our money and what we do is more valuable.

[00:05:16] And actually teach us better habits and practices in terms of how to protect our finances and actually grow them.

[00:05:24] And I know that's what we're probably going to spend a little time talking about.

[00:05:27] Yeah.

[00:05:28] Yeah.

[00:05:28] You talked about how there's things that we can make friction-filled in our life to help us.

[00:05:32] How does a frictionless experience sometimes hurt us?

[00:05:36] Like in taxes, I wish it was frictionless.

[00:05:38] That would be fantastic.

[00:05:39] But there's other frictionless experiences.

[00:05:41] One that comes to my mind is tap-to-pay as the first one.

[00:05:44] But how do those kind of experiences hurt us in our money?

[00:05:49] Well, here's the issue, I think.

[00:05:51] When the idea of access to our own funds has become so easy, so automatic, it actually makes it easier for thieves to pretty much replicate access to our funds.

[00:06:04] I mean, right now, our entire financial information is somewhere online.

[00:06:09] And it doesn't really take much to think about, really.

[00:06:12] If somebody was able to get access to all our bank account numbers, all our passwords, how easy would it be to transfer or just honestly siphon $10 a month?

[00:06:24] You know, if you could get access to 20,000 accounts and they're passing.

[00:06:29] Yeah, $10 a month at 20,000 is a lot of money.

[00:06:31] $10 a month.

[00:06:32] You know, you don't even think about it.

[00:06:33] Is it my Netflix?

[00:06:34] You know?

[00:06:35] That's what I was about to say is those subscriptions.

[00:06:37] Net fluke.

[00:06:38] Okay, great.

[00:06:39] Yeah.

[00:06:40] Those subscriptions are almost like you gave them access to your credit card number.

[00:06:44] In a way, like that's the things that are siphoning the money out.

[00:06:47] And so this type of what I call easy access that was meant for us, for our convenience, actually makes it easier for thieves to then actually, and pranksters and fraudsters to take advantage of us.

[00:07:01] So that's a form of friction that we have to just be very careful of.

[00:07:05] And as you probably know, financial institutions and other so-called payment systems have caught on to this.

[00:07:14] And so what have they done?

[00:07:15] They've added friction.

[00:07:16] So now we have double verification.

[00:07:19] You know, sometimes we want to do a transaction and a couple things happen.

[00:07:22] One, we're notified that, hey, you know, actually, no, actually, the first thing that probably happens is we're sent a authentication code in our text or something else that we have to go from one device to another in order to make sure it is us.

[00:07:38] Okay?

[00:07:38] So that is a form of security.

[00:07:40] Then we get a notification that, hey, XYZ transaction happened at this time for this amount.

[00:07:46] Does that jive with what you have been doing in your life?

[00:07:50] Right?

[00:07:50] And so those are all forms of friction because they take up more of our day, more of our time to sort of pay attention to it, to deal with it, that are actually very positive.

[00:08:02] You know, a good form of friction, I'll use the same thing, this idea of friction can provide greater assurance.

[00:08:08] The idea of inconvenience can provide greater assurance was really best brought to life by an example that was maybe, this was about 30 or 40 years ago.

[00:08:18] Tylenol had a big scare.

[00:08:19] Somebody put, I think, cyanide in Tylenol.

[00:08:22] And they had to take every single Tylenol off the shelf back in, I think it was the 80s, right?

[00:08:27] Yeah.

[00:08:28] And, you know, that's a big deal.

[00:08:30] And it was a huge recall.

[00:08:31] And it might surprise your listeners to know that Tylenol used to be something where it was, you could buy it off the shelf and you could open the bottle and look inside and see what tablets were in it.

[00:08:43] That was true for any medication out there, right?

[00:08:47] Which thinking about it now is crazy.

[00:08:49] Now it's child-resistant top.

[00:08:54] Adult-resistant.

[00:08:55] Adult-resistant, right?

[00:08:57] That's shrink-wrapped on top.

[00:08:58] That is in a package.

[00:09:00] And the package itself is also plastic-wrapped, right?

[00:09:03] So there's very, almost no way to tamper with the package anymore or the product anymore because of all this new friction they added but for our safety and to create greater assurance.

[00:09:17] So, yeah, I think friction is actually really important when it comes to providing safety and security.

[00:09:24] And sometimes when we go to the other extreme, we actually invite mayhem.

[00:09:31] Yeah, you let chaos reign free because you have no barriers.

[00:09:35] And one of the things I jotted down is it almost provides confidence because it's almost like when you're registering for something, if the process is too fast, you're like, did I do that right?

[00:09:44] Like, did I miss a step?

[00:09:46] But if there is maybe that checkbox at the end where you're like, why do I need to click this?

[00:09:51] But maybe it's just that extra thought that helps you be more confident in what you're doing.

[00:09:55] So I like that.

[00:09:56] And I like the idea of taking maybe friction as something we always see as bad.

[00:10:00] We want less friction.

[00:10:00] But then if you put that positive spin on it, there's plenty of places where it can help us, like saving money.

[00:10:06] Is there some examples?

[00:10:07] How can friction help people save money?

[00:10:09] Well, you nailed it.

[00:10:11] I mean, let's face it.

[00:10:13] Saving.

[00:10:14] The idea of saving and the idea of actually forcing yourself to put 10% of your paycheck into a 401k, into whatever it might be, is a form of discipline.

[00:10:25] And discipline is a form of friction, right?

[00:10:27] You are, best way to put it, curtailing some of your temptations to go out and spend all your money, right?

[00:10:35] And the need to curtail is a form of self-friction.

[00:10:41] It's also, in many ways, this type of friction develops healthy habits, right?

[00:10:47] Because it's kind of like, you ever watch the movie Disney Put It Out?

[00:10:53] It was about a robot all by itself on the planet Earth that had pretty much-

[00:10:59] WALL-E.

[00:10:59] Yeah, WALL-E, right?

[00:11:01] And so in WALL-E, he finally ends up traveling to where all the humans are.

[00:11:05] And they're on this spaceship, this luxury kind of cruise.

[00:11:11] They're all sitting on these flotation devices.

[00:11:14] And they're all like 500 pounds.

[00:11:16] They have no muscle mass, no bone mass.

[00:11:20] Because why?

[00:11:20] There was no friction to do any exercise.

[00:11:23] I mean, everything, if they want to drink, a floaty device comes out with a straw.

[00:11:28] And so this idea of friction for your body, for your heart, for your muscles, for your bones, is the same thing.

[00:11:38] And the same thing applies for friction for your, call it your financial health, right?

[00:11:44] It's really important to have that discipline, to say no to your temptations, to actually deal with a bit of scarcity.

[00:11:55] And apply that to your own life.

[00:11:57] So yes, absolutely.

[00:11:58] And there's another form.

[00:12:00] Okay, so we talked about the idea of verification that gives you security.

[00:12:03] We talked about the idea of what I call extra firewalls, right?

[00:12:08] That's also part of it, right?

[00:12:09] And then we talked about this idea of good friction in terms of creating habits and practices and discipline.

[00:12:17] But there's also, I think, in the financial world, the friction of accreditation, right?

[00:12:22] Because we don't want just anybody dealing with our finances, right?

[00:12:26] We want somebody that actually has an accounting degree, that actually is a financial planner,

[00:12:31] and is verified because they've taken certain tests or done certain things or jumped over certain hoops in order to prove their competency and their credibility.

[00:12:41] So I think all those things are all forms of good friction that are introduced into the financial systems.

[00:12:46] Yeah.

[00:12:47] And same thing with that accreditation.

[00:12:49] You don't want a scammy merchant that you're giving your info to.

[00:12:52] I just keep taking these ideas that you're saying and applying them to how we're spending our money.

[00:12:59] Are we like the point of friction is the fees and penalties around your 401k?

[00:13:03] That's a friction point to keep your money in your 401k.

[00:13:06] All sorts of things like that.

[00:13:07] If you just start to notice them, my mind's like racing with how is this good and beneficial?

[00:13:12] And it sounds overall good.

[00:13:15] Like it's a thing that we need to keep applying.

[00:13:16] We need to keep recognizing and making sure we're understanding how do you use friction in your life to maybe help better some things that aren't naturally there as friction.

[00:13:26] Absolutely.

[00:13:27] I mean, and, you know, let's take it away from the financial or take it, you know, let's sort of go above the financial world and talk about just your life in general.

[00:13:36] A part of the reason we wrote the book is we were noticing that a lot of brands were chasing the idea of becoming frictionless or seamless in all their customer experiences.

[00:13:47] And one of the things that me and my author, co-author, Dave Burrs, we do a lot of, we help brands create what I call important signatures that make their brand stand out.

[00:13:57] And one of the most important is the idea of signature experiences.

[00:14:00] And you think about like Apple, right?

[00:14:04] Let's take Apple.

[00:14:05] Apple will be my example.

[00:14:06] But here, let's take the opposite of Apple.

[00:14:09] You go to Best Buy, you buy a flash drive.

[00:14:12] It comes in this, you know, plastic clamshell, right?

[00:14:15] You go home, you take scissors, you have to cut it open, and then you have to pry it apart just to get this little flash drive.

[00:14:21] And it's like over plastic.

[00:14:22] It's over package.

[00:14:23] That's bad friction.

[00:14:24] Now, Apple, they actually, you actually spend more time unpacking your Apple package than you do that awful clamshell.

[00:14:33] But they do it in a different way, right?

[00:14:35] It's layers upon layers.

[00:14:37] It's like opening a treasure chest.

[00:14:39] You know, every time I give a talk, I ask people, how many people have kept an Apple package?

[00:14:44] Yeah, in this closet.

[00:14:45] Almost every time you've kept at least one.

[00:14:47] And I think, you know, I think the most was somebody had kept 17 of them.

[00:14:50] Okay, so.

[00:14:51] I had, there was a point in my life where I had to get rid of all of them because I had like six iPhone boxes, couple iPad boxes.

[00:14:57] Like, yes, I get exactly what you're saying.

[00:14:59] But that is a form of friction that people, that created the light for people, right?

[00:15:04] That also connoted what their signature experience was, which is this is treasure.

[00:15:10] This is something that's worth protecting.

[00:15:13] This is something that you want to unveil because it's so special.

[00:15:17] And so as we dove into the idea of creating great brand experiences that were, that became signatures for these incredible brands, we realized none of them were about the idea of just becoming frictionless.

[00:15:30] A lot of them were about making you pause, take notice, take a breath, get more engaged, asking more of you.

[00:15:37] Like every time Nike launches one of their special collections, it's not just something they put online.

[00:15:43] They actually make it and they gamify the whole thing.

[00:15:46] They actually go.

[00:15:47] And first off, you have to find out, okay, through little, I guess what they call rabbits or whatever the white rabbits in the website, you have to find those that then pull the clues together to tell you, oh, you actually have to go to a public space, download a augmented reality type virtual reality type app.

[00:16:09] You have to then go and try to figure out what angle to put it at in order to see a floating number in the air.

[00:16:15] Then you get that number.

[00:16:16] You go back home.

[00:16:17] You get online.

[00:16:18] And that allows you to then get into the queue.

[00:16:21] Yeah.

[00:16:22] Then potentially purchase, you know, talk about all this friction.

[00:16:25] It's like you're guaranteed.

[00:16:27] You only guarantee a spot to queue up, but you're not guaranteed the ability to purchase it.

[00:16:32] All that creates incredible excitement and anticipation for one of their releases.

[00:16:40] So what we found out is that most great experiences, like if you were to journey map the customer experience, and one of the things we ask people to do is how do you figure out what the pivotal moments in the experience are?

[00:16:55] And usually what we do is ask people to put happy faces, sad faces, and sweaty faces next to the different sequence of things in a journey.

[00:17:03] And those moments where you have the most faces tend to be the pivotal moments.

[00:17:11] And guess what?

[00:17:13] All those, whether it's happy, whether it's sweaty, whether it's frustrated or sad or crying, those are created by emotion.

[00:17:21] And emotion only happens when you kick in those what I call the happy chemicals of dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin, endorphins, and adrenaline.

[00:17:30] And you don't get those without some form of friction.

[00:17:35] And so that's how, aha, hey, going frictionless, you kind of, you neuter out all those happy chemicals.

[00:17:43] And then, and here's the last thing I'd say about this idea of creating frictionless experiences.

[00:17:48] If your experience is, if the way you want your customers by having the most frictionless experience, and that's your winning formula, then guess what?

[00:17:57] You're going to lose to the next person that creates even a more frictionless experience than you.

[00:18:02] No reason for them to stay with you.

[00:18:03] The only reason they stay with you is because you were easy.

[00:18:06] Well, I'm going to go to the next easier person, right?

[00:18:09] So the reason I'm with you is not because you're easy, but because you're interesting or because you're engaging or because you know what?

[00:18:16] I've invested so much of my energy, time, and goodwill with you that it's really the switching cost for me is so high.

[00:18:23] Like, it's not about convenience, then I'm more likely to keep you.

[00:18:28] Yeah, that's fantastic.

[00:18:29] And I love the way that paints a picture of what companies are trying to do.

[00:18:33] And honestly, the memorable companies, like you said, are the ones that have some friction in the process.

[00:18:37] The friction of peeling the plastic off of the Apple container so that it looks good and stuff.

[00:18:42] Whereas you're just cutting things open and throwing them right away.

[00:18:44] You don't care what store you're doing that from.

[00:18:46] You're going to Walmart or Best Buy.

[00:18:48] It doesn't matter.

[00:18:49] Whichever one's cheaper is really all it comes down to.

[00:18:51] It's whatever's cheaper.

[00:18:52] You don't even care the brand name anymore, right?

[00:18:54] It's like, you know, and now you've just basically commoditized it.

[00:18:57] And that's a concern.

[00:18:59] Going fully seamless and frictionless is that you become a bit of a commodity.

[00:19:04] And it honestly leads to worse products too.

[00:19:07] Like I think Amazon, like one click buy.

[00:19:09] One, that's bad for your finances.

[00:19:11] But also when it's so frictionless, you don't really care which one you're purchasing because you just want it quickest.

[00:19:17] It says fastest shipping time, things like that.

[00:19:19] And then you get a bad product or you don't really know what you're getting.

[00:19:22] It's fast to return.

[00:19:23] So you're just cycling through things.

[00:19:25] It leads to higher consumption.

[00:19:27] Like all sorts of things that when you make it completely frictionless, sure, it seems nice and easy.

[00:19:32] But it doesn't lead to ultimately a good experience.

[00:19:35] How do we take this friction now and maybe reintroduce it into our lives?

[00:19:43] How can that be helpful for just the person outside of the company and things like that?

[00:19:48] How can the person apply some friction into their lives?

[00:19:51] So we write about there's seven different virtues or different opportunities to add good friction.

[00:20:01] It's engagement, meaning, belonging, rapport, assurance, competency, and exclusivity.

[00:20:09] So these are sort of seven areas that you could consider and think about.

[00:20:13] Like with engagement, it's this idea that are people – are you creating a situation where people are spending more time with you and wanting to spend not just time but energy and thought and effort?

[00:20:26] And part of that is are you engaging them?

[00:20:28] Are you asking them questions?

[00:20:29] Are you asking them for input?

[00:20:31] Are they – do things sort of stop until they actually do something, right?

[00:20:36] Or do you do it just for them?

[00:20:37] It's kind of like raising kids, right?

[00:20:38] If you do anything for your kid, they don't know how to do anything for themselves, right?

[00:20:42] So this idea of engagement.

[00:20:44] Can you create greater engagement by asking more of your customers, more of your employees, more of the people you work with?

[00:20:51] Meaning – I mean this is an important one.

[00:20:54] Studies have shown that those people who win lotteries, okay, they have a higher propensity to become bankrupt and to be financially –

[00:21:04] you know, I guess, yeah, become financially in duress, right?

[00:21:10] Yeah, you're taking that scarcity.

[00:21:12] We opened the episode with talking about how scarcity is necessary and if there wasn't that, just like you said, bankruptcy follows lottery winners because there's no scarcity.

[00:21:20] It really does because what happens at first?

[00:21:22] You think you're very – like all of a sudden, you're like, wow, okay.

[00:21:25] A, I'm also incredibly wealthy or more than I've ever been, right?

[00:21:30] And all the things I really wanted, I can afford, so I'm going to go buy them.

[00:21:33] And then all your friends come and ask you for help.

[00:21:36] You're like, sure, why not?

[00:21:36] I can help you.

[00:21:37] And you have no financial discipline.

[00:21:39] You've never had to have it in the past before, right?

[00:21:43] And you end up overextending yourself and that's what generally happens.

[00:21:47] And contrast that.

[00:21:49] Let's say you won $10 million a lottery versus you spent 40 years of your life working your butt off, right?

[00:21:56] Going from one job to another, being asked to move and relocate with your family and having to sacrifice here and there.

[00:22:04] And you've slowly over those 40 years built your nest egg.

[00:22:08] And you built $10 million over those 40 years, right?

[00:22:13] At the end of that, are you going to willy-nilly go and spend it on anything?

[00:22:18] Heck no.

[00:22:18] Because you know what sweat, tears, and everything else that you had to put in to get to that.

[00:22:24] That was $10 million.

[00:22:25] And every dollar means something to you because it is part and they represent the journey and the struggle of your life, right?

[00:22:33] So that's why meaning is so important.

[00:22:36] And the more you put energy and consideration, thought towards something, the more meaningful it is.

[00:22:43] Another good example of that is – it's funny.

[00:22:46] It's called the IKEA effect.

[00:22:47] But what IKEA actually realized is that when you actually assemble your own furniture, you are more likely to pay a higher amount for that furniture.

[00:23:00] In fact, the studies have shown – I think it was done by Harvard, Duke, and Yale.

[00:23:04] There were three professors that had done this release of study.

[00:23:07] But they show that you're actually willing to pay up to 63% more for something that you put your blood, sweat, and tears in versus somebody else assembled it.

[00:23:18] Same product.

[00:23:19] And so that has more meaning because you put the effort in.

[00:23:23] So there's meaning.

[00:23:25] The other one, let's see, a belonging.

[00:23:28] I mean there's a reason people haze, okay?

[00:23:31] They make it hard for you to join a fraternity or sorority because then it's worthwhile.

[00:23:38] Then it's something where, hey, not everyone can get in.

[00:23:40] And it not only demonstrates your commitment, but it also – it really signifies that you had the rites of passage, right?

[00:23:53] You've actually passed those rites of passage, and then you're accepted because of that type of commitment.

[00:24:01] And that creates a sense of belonging, this idea that you demand more, right?

[00:24:06] Rapport.

[00:24:07] I love rapport.

[00:24:08] It's this idea.

[00:24:09] Here's a simple thing for your listeners to think about.

[00:24:12] One of the best ways to get close to somebody isn't to ask a favor.

[00:24:17] I'm sorry.

[00:24:17] It isn't to do a favor for them.

[00:24:19] It's actually to ask a favor.

[00:24:22] Interesting.

[00:24:22] Yeah, Benjamin Franklin actually used this technique.

[00:24:25] He had a rival and somebody who really disliked him a lot, but he knew a couple things about his rival, and that was that they both shared an interest in books.

[00:24:34] So Benjamin Franklin actually went up to him.

[00:24:36] They were both legislators or politicians or whatever and asked to borrow a book from this person's collection.

[00:24:44] It was a fairly rare book, but also one that signified that I understood the value of this book, okay?

[00:24:51] And the other person obliged, and they were able to develop a relationship from the idea of Benjamin Franklin actually asking a favor.

[00:25:03] And the same is true here.

[00:25:04] If you're strategic about a good ask, think about the person on the other end.

[00:25:09] It's all of a sudden I'm invested in you.

[00:25:11] You know, like, hey, I just put some time energy to your welfare, and so now you're a person of interest for me, and I kind of want to know whatever favor I did for you, was there a benefit?

[00:25:23] And if you show gratitude as a response to that favor, then there's more reasons for us to even be more connected.

[00:25:33] I'm vested in you, and now you've shown me gratitude.

[00:25:36] All of a sudden you become a person of interest for me.

[00:25:39] And so one of the best ways to get close to somebody is to ask a good favor of them.

[00:25:45] This is all fantastic.

[00:25:46] And I honestly, I don't know how 25 minutes has gone by, because here we are.

[00:25:50] You've shared a ton of great insights.

[00:25:51] And I just keep thinking, wow, that's a great way to apply.

[00:25:54] Like, if you apply the rapport one to your coworkers, that's a great way to add some friction to your relationship that's going to improve it.

[00:26:01] Because I wrote down, too, that other people love to serve each other.

[00:26:04] Like, it's fun when you can help somebody out by doing a favor for them.

[00:26:09] So I'm just listening to all the different ways you can apply friction, and just thinking of all the different relationships, all sorts of different things that helps us improve in our lives.

[00:26:18] So, soon, thanks for joining.

[00:26:19] I got a couple questions as we wrap up here.

[00:26:22] First is going to be, how can people learn more about you?

[00:26:24] And then the second one to finish us off here is, what is one thing you wish you would have known sooner when it comes to money?

[00:26:30] So let's kick it off with, how can people find you online?

[00:26:33] And reach out if they have any questions.

[00:26:35] Sure.

[00:26:35] So you can reach me on my general website, which is soonu.com.

[00:26:39] That's S-O-O-N, like soon, like early.

[00:26:42] And U is spelled Y-U dot com.

[00:26:45] So all my other types of information and Instagram, all that, it's all connected to that.

[00:26:50] So that's how people can reach me.

[00:26:52] And if I could go back and give myself just a little bit of advice,

[00:26:58] it would probably go back to what you and I talked about.

[00:27:00] This idea of, man, if I could just force 10% from an early age for my whole life, wow.

[00:27:09] Well, you know, the compounding interest of that investment.

[00:27:15] And I think it's the consistency of it versus the ebbs and the flows and kind of cheating yourself by saying,

[00:27:22] well, I'm going to take out a little more.

[00:27:24] I'm not going to do it this month or that month.

[00:27:26] And, you know, it's when you cheat yourself.

[00:27:28] You actually, that continuity, I think, is so important.

[00:27:32] And I think, actually, for most of us, if we were to apply that one principle, 10%,

[00:27:38] we would all be very, based on this, you know, our standard of living, right?

[00:27:46] We would be more than adequate in terms of retirement, right?

[00:27:50] We'd have more than we'd ever need for retirement.

[00:27:53] And so, yeah, I just, I almost wish it was forced.

[00:27:56] Yeah.

[00:27:57] Like, instead of tax, like, I know there's social security and things like that.

[00:28:01] But if there was kind of a taxes of your own retirement,

[00:28:04] so that you actually had to take care of yourself, too, that would be a huge thing.

[00:28:09] Like, if people could learn to live on 90%, 80% of their income and just put that away, you're set.

[00:28:15] 90%.

[00:28:16] 90% would be enough.

[00:28:17] You and I know because of compounding that that 10% is dramatic.

[00:28:22] It's huge.

[00:28:22] And so, in some ways, I just wish society was actually designed that way.

[00:28:26] Forget social security.

[00:28:27] I don't even trust it, right?

[00:28:28] But it's like forced savings.

[00:28:31] I just think, wow, there's some power in that.

[00:28:33] And then, you know, at a certain age, we're able to access part of it.

[00:28:37] And then at another age, we're able to access all of it, right?

[00:28:40] I mean, and actually, not having to worry about taking care of people later on,

[00:28:46] because everyone's taking care of themselves.

[00:28:48] What a huge benefit to society that would be.

[00:28:51] Yeah, if there wasn't so much.

[00:28:53] Yeah, well, that's a completely different episode that we're about to start down.

[00:28:56] But I love it.

[00:28:57] Take care of yourself.

[00:28:58] Throw that 10% into a savings account.

[00:29:01] And it'll help you out tremendously down the road.

[00:29:03] But soon, this has been a fantastic episode about friction, a great conversation.

[00:29:07] Thank you so much for joining me.

[00:29:09] Thank you.

[00:29:19] Thank you so much to soon for coming on today's episode.

[00:29:22] That was a fantastic interview.

[00:29:23] And of course, the biggest thing of impact that you're going to be able to take away from

[00:29:26] that conversation is to add more friction.

[00:29:29] How can frictionless experiences hurt you?

[00:29:31] What are some of them that can?

[00:29:32] Well, I'm thinking of a lot of examples like tap to pay, contactless payments, mobile banking

[00:29:37] and mobile shopping apps, one tap buy, credit card accessibility, such as save payment methods,

[00:29:43] auto renewal, too much automation, which I'm going to get back to because you know, I love

[00:29:47] automation.

[00:29:47] But let's talk about the other ones first.

[00:29:49] Tap to pay.

[00:29:50] How easy is it?

[00:29:52] You take your debit card or credit card out of your wallet and they just say tap here.

[00:29:56] How much was your payment even the other day?

[00:29:58] I don't even remember what this fast food place we went to to get some burritos was.

[00:30:03] I don't even know if they told me how much it cost.

[00:30:05] I really don't remember.

[00:30:07] But that's because it was so easy and seamless to make a payment, which you might say is a

[00:30:11] good thing.

[00:30:12] It's nice to have things be quick, convenient and fast.

[00:30:14] But when we're forgetting how much we're paying for things, that's when tap to pay and contactless

[00:30:19] payments can become a real problem.

[00:30:21] And let's talk about mobile banking.

[00:30:23] I don't have any banking apps on my phone and maybe I should.

[00:30:28] It's helpful to check your money, I guess.

[00:30:30] But when you have a good strategy in place and you know how you're spending money and

[00:30:33] how you're managing your budget, you really don't need to be checking it all that often.

[00:30:37] And I think mobile banking can also be dangerous because maybe you're transferring money all

[00:30:40] the time just to continue paying.

[00:30:42] Oh, what's $20 out of my savings to my checking to use my debit card?

[00:30:46] Things like that.

[00:30:47] But especially mobile shopping apps and one tap buy.

[00:30:50] The one tap to pay with Amazon is a dangerous button.

[00:30:54] And honestly, it should probably be illegal because it's so easy because your payment method

[00:30:58] is saved, which gets us into our next one, is remove those saved payment methods.

[00:31:02] That's an excellent point of friction.

[00:31:03] All of these shopping apps want to make it as fast as possible for you to be able to

[00:31:07] get the item that they want you to buy.

[00:31:08] Because so often it's ads and marketing and things like that that get us to the point where

[00:31:12] we're ready to purchase.

[00:31:13] And then it says one click to pay.

[00:31:16] Seamless.

[00:31:17] Easy.

[00:31:17] It just shows up on your doorstep.

[00:31:18] You click one click pay.

[00:31:20] You hit confirm your shipping.

[00:31:21] Maybe you don't even have to do that.

[00:31:23] I don't know.

[00:31:23] But that's so easy and seamless.

[00:31:25] And that's a way that can harm your finances.

[00:31:27] Now let's talk about too much automation because this one hurts my heart a little bit.

[00:31:31] But there might be a point where automation isn't good for you.

[00:31:34] And that's when the companies are using automation against you.

[00:31:38] Autopay.

[00:31:38] Auto renewal.

[00:31:39] Those are the sort of things that are bad automation that you need to get rid of.

[00:31:44] But also maybe your autopay on your credit card is only set to the minimum.

[00:31:48] So you really don't know how much you're spending on it because it's only set to the minimum.

[00:31:52] You're living life in $50 a month payments and you don't know how much you're putting

[00:31:56] on your credit card.

[00:31:56] So make sure you're paying attention and being careful of things like autopay on credit

[00:32:00] cards so that you really know how much you're actually spending.

[00:32:03] And of course auto renewal on subscriptions.

[00:32:05] Get rid of that stuff.

[00:32:06] That's a bad seamless experience because it just takes money.

[00:32:10] Like we said in the interview, sure there's criminals and things like that that want to

[00:32:14] siphon money with autopay making it easy to get access to your money.

[00:32:17] But I honestly immediately took that idea and thought of subscriptions.

[00:32:22] Those are seamless payment methods where they're just siphoning money out of your account one simple

[00:32:28] step at a time.

[00:32:28] And I have some more thoughts on this a little bit later.

[00:32:30] But frictionless experiences try to take the focus off of the things that you can control

[00:32:35] with your money.

[00:32:35] So you need to make sure you add some friction.

[00:32:37] Make your credit card payments manual but don't forget to pay it of course.

[00:32:41] I immediately wrote that down in all caps on my notes here.

[00:32:44] Maybe make it so you have to pay your credit card bills manually but all caps do not forget

[00:32:48] to pay it off.

[00:32:49] Make sure you're paying it off every single month in full.

[00:32:51] And you may want to even log into your utility bills and pay those manually so that you know

[00:32:55] how much you're actually spending and using for your utilities.

[00:32:59] Another great thing to do is any sort of shopping apps.

[00:33:02] If you're having a hard time saving money and not spending impulsively on them, delete your

[00:33:06] saved payment methods.

[00:33:07] Let me repeat it.

[00:33:08] Delete the saved payment methods.

[00:33:10] That way you have to type in your card every single time.

[00:33:13] How annoying is that?

[00:33:14] And that's why that's a good source of friction because they want to make it seamless.

[00:33:18] They want to make it so fast to be able to just click one tap pay, buy now.

[00:33:23] All that sort of stuff is meant to be so fast for the experience but really it's just how

[00:33:27] they're siphoning money out of your account.

[00:33:28] Another impactful thing that I got from the interview is how important meaning is.

[00:33:32] We care more about the furniture we build.

[00:33:34] We care more about the money we make.

[00:33:36] So make sure you're caring about the money you make now and not just in the future or

[00:33:40] things like that.

[00:33:40] Make sure you're caring about it now so that you can add some friction so that your money

[00:33:44] does what you want it to do instead of what all the companies want it to do.

[00:33:48] Which is spend money in their behalf and just continue to regularly give money to them.

[00:33:53] So make sure you're adding some friction so that your meaning and care is there with

[00:33:57] your money.

[00:33:57] But next let's talk about the money talking points.

[00:34:00] The first money talking point is what point of friction would I like to add to my life?

[00:34:03] And take this one, share this episode with a friend of course.

[00:34:06] Great way to help the podcast grow.

[00:34:07] So if you're enjoying this episode, click share, send it to a friend and talk about this

[00:34:11] next talking point.

[00:34:12] What point of friction would I like to add to my life?

[00:34:14] If I need to go back in and delete our saved payment method off Amazon because we're spending

[00:34:19] money often.

[00:34:21] It's so easy to just see, oh, I want that.

[00:34:23] And we have Prime sharing a Prime subscription with my grandma.

[00:34:26] So it's easy to get things in a day or two.

[00:34:28] So I need to make it a little bit harder to spend money on Amazon.

[00:34:31] Where do you need to add friction to your life and especially in your finances?

[00:34:35] The second money talking point is what areas seem so seamless it's harmful.

[00:34:38] Like I just said, Amazon and I've harped on it a lot this episode.

[00:34:42] The buy now button is super harmful.

[00:34:45] Saved payment methods like I just talked about are super harmful.

[00:34:48] Get rid of them and delete them.

[00:34:49] Make it hard for you to spend money and add that little bit of friction in your life.

[00:34:53] And then talk to your friends about how it helped you save so much money and encourage

[00:34:57] them to do the same.

[00:34:58] But thank you for listening to this episode.

[00:35:00] Let's wrap it all up next.

[00:35:02] So thank you to everyone who listened to this episode.

[00:35:04] Thank you for getting to this point here at the end.

[00:35:06] I truly appreciate it and thank you to soon for coming on today's episode.

[00:35:10] It was a great one and I think friction is something we all need to consider a little

[00:35:13] bit more.

[00:35:14] Think about how companies use it to make memorable experiences.

[00:35:17] Make your finances memorable by keeping your money in your control with a little bit

[00:35:21] of friction like getting rid of saved payment methods.

[00:35:24] Remember that so many companies are trying to make purchasing and your decision making

[00:35:28] as frictionless as possible.

[00:35:29] It makes it easy for them to take your money even if it's just a few dollars a month at

[00:35:33] a time.

[00:35:34] Just think about Apple.

[00:35:35] Their services, which are mostly automatic subscriptions, make up 28% of their company.

[00:35:40] The only thing bigger in their company is the iPhone.

[00:35:45] Everything else is automatic services.

[00:35:48] It's people automatically giving their money to Apple.

[00:35:51] 28% of their company is a seamless experience and that's how they make money.

[00:35:55] They want to make it as easy as possible for you to regularly give them money.

[00:35:59] So make sure you cut out any sort of automatic seamless experience and make it so you have

[00:36:04] to manually pay for things.

[00:36:05] Thank you so much for listening.

[00:36:07] Again, please consider sharing this episode.

[00:36:08] It's a great way to help the show grow.

[00:36:10] And remember, the best way to learn from the show is to teach it to someone else.

[00:36:14] If you or anyone you know would like to be a guest on the show, please reach out.

[00:36:18] I'd love to have a discussion and have a money talk with anyone who's willing to get on and

[00:36:22] chat about money.

[00:36:23] But thank you for listening to Money Talk with Skylar Fleming.

[00:36:26] I'm your host, Skylar Fleming.

[00:36:27] Have a great week.

[00:36:28] Thank you for listening to Money Talk with Skylar Fleming.

[00:36:31] This show is provided for informational and entertainment purposes and may not be specific

[00:36:35] to your unique situation.

[00:36:37] Please be sure to do additional research before making any financial decisions.