Why is it So Hard to Get Started with Money with Jessica Patel - 163

[00:00:00] Welcome Money Buddies to this week's episode of Money Talk with Skyler Fleming. Today we are talking about why it can be so hard to get started with our money. And I know it can be a real challenge for pretty much everybody. How do you get started? What do you do first? Should you focus on paying off debt or saving up for retirement? There are so many questions to ask yourself and to figure out. And that's where this podcast comes into play with all the episodes we have in our back catalog. So be sure to subscribe and go check out some of the old episodes as well, because they're all going to help you get started in so many different aspects of money.

[00:00:30] But a quick mention that if you're having a hard time getting started budgeting, I just partnered with my budget coach to offer a budgeting software that ties in financial coaches directly. So you can use the tool to manage your budget, but also connect directly with me as your financial coach. I'll have a link to my directory page in the show notes for you to go check it out and head over to my website and schedule a free money talk with me. And we can talk about how you can start budgeting today. But let's get back to the episode and introduce today's money buddy. Today's money buddy is Jessica Patel.

[00:01:00] Jessica Patel has spent her award winning career in the editorial space first as a journalist and later as a business leader, identifying the best ways to monetize content while still making it appeal to readers. She's created content for Bankrate, the New York Times, the New Yorker, Gap and her money among others. You can find her often working in the startup space, building brands, creating content strategies and identifying product opportunities. She loves creating new things, pushing people to greatness, being kind and for better or worse, glitter.

[00:01:26] She joined the Singleton Foundation for financial literacy and launched the app Groove, which we're going to talk a little bit more about today. But the money talking points for this week are what emotions are you feeling about money that is blocking you from getting started? Two, how can you start a money talk today? And three, how do small steps help you retrain your brain to handle money? With those money talking points in mind, let's get talking. Hello everybody and welcome to today's interview on money talk with Skyler Fleming. Joining me today, I have Jessica Patel.

[00:01:55] And we're talking about a platform called Groove, but we're also going to be diving into why it can seem so hard to get started with our money. And we're going to talk through some tips and tricks and ways to get started. And especially we're going to talk about the platform that Jessica is behind called Groove. But Jessica, would you kick us off with an introduction of who you are? My name is Jessica Patel and I'm the creator of Groove. Fantastic. Let's go ahead and get started here with just some general money ideas, some money thoughts, questions, concerns that people might have. Why can it be so challenging?

[00:02:25] For people to get started with money. I think it's overwhelming really more than anything else. When you think about why you want to get started with money, the idea is usually because you're in debt, right? Or you need to save for something big, or you have these anxieties around wanting to be better with something that you're not good at. And that's daunting. Like you think about it in terms of a hobby or something I've never done before. There's nothing to lose if you decide to not take up the violin, but there's a lot more to lose if you don't figure out your money really. So that it's

[00:02:55] It's that anxiety and that fear that I think usually causes people to feel like it's a hard challenge to undertake. Was there something in your life that kind of got you spurred in that? I wrote a note here that says it's usually something big like debt. Was there maybe something that got you started with money? Going to college was a challenge for me. So I took on a lot of college debt. I also got really sick when I was in college and I had to have some surgeries. Thankfully for me, it was covered. But you look at those medical bills, it was half a million dollars. And a half million dollar medical bill when you're 24 years old is a pretty

[00:03:25] crazy thing to have to look at right and even then all the deductibles and everything else paying off $10,000. When you're working at a newspaper is daunting or paying at that time when $800 cell phone bill you're oh my gosh, how am I gonna make it through. So it's those kinds of things and knowing those feelings of anxiety and fear and even feeling less when you're talking to other people right all your friends who might have more than you don't you know, you don't want to live that right it's it's hard all of those emotions.

[00:03:55] I've gone through on my own for sure. You mentioned a couple things right there anxiety fear feeling less than others. What are some other common fears that people have when it comes to getting started they see that big pile of debt that they have. How are people generally feeling when it comes to getting started with that.

[00:04:10] I think it seems insurmountable a lot of times right and I think that it's also the lack of knowledge that individuals have because you see that medical debt right and you call up I have to pay this bill and they're like okay well you have to pay $7,000 a month to pay this bill.

[00:04:26] You know, I don't have $7,000 a month. They're not going to say well you can pay 20. They're going to say well you have to pay $7,000. And if you had that knowledge base to understand that you can negotiate that bill down or you can still pay it and say listen, this is all I have to give you. I'm going to pay this every month for what I have and then we can call you back later so that you are still paying that bill or that you can negotiate that bill. And I think that it's that lack of knowledge sometimes continues that fear or the inability to feel like you can get out of it.

[00:04:55] When you have credit card debt, you can sometimes negotiate your payments down. You can do a credit transfer. You can potentially even think about, you know, working with a home loaner or all of these different potential options. But if you don't know your options and you just see $30,000 in credit card debt with a 30% interest rate, well what do you do? And it's almost that feeling of wanting to ignore it and getting into that phase of that Austrian syndrome of sticking your head in the sand.

[00:05:23] If I don't look at it, it doesn't exist. But it doesn't actually go away and that kind of leads into that fear again of like I'm never going to get out of this. I'm never going to feel better. I'm never going to. But the thing is, it's changing that mindset and trying to say, no, I can do this, but I have to do it in a different way and not in a way that maybe is the only thing that I know about. You mentioned understanding where you're at with money helps you make progress.

[00:05:50] I remember reading somewhere that identifying how you feel about money can be helpful in this aspect. How do we get started with that? How do we begin to understand how we feel about money? We call it your money personality and the idea behind your money personality. It's all about understanding who you are with your money, why you might feel the way you do. And then we also have videos alongside that. Once we identify what kind of person you are with your money, we can dive a little bit deeper. Does this come from your family, your parents or your grandparents?

[00:06:18] Does this come from being around your friends? Is it a cultural thing of how you feel about your money? Is it the way that you were raised? Is it some hardship that made you shift your ways and feel this way? So we talk about all of those different pieces within there as well so that you can gain a deeper understanding of who you are with your finances, those feelings around them and how to navigate through them. What do we do once we realize some of those feelings? So they've gone through the survey and maybe they understand, like you said, this came from your parents. That leads to one of the things I love to ask people.

[00:06:48] What's your first money memory? I think that keys into that same sort of question of what kind of money behaviors and relationships with money did you pick up from your parents? How does that actually help or what do we do once we realize that information? I think that you have two choices, right? You can either continue to do what your parents did, whether that was good or not. Or if your parents put you down the wrong path, you can identify that. And now that you've identified that source, you can work to change that. And it's not something that you do overnight. We here at Groove work on that small system.

[00:07:18] It's the little wins that you can make. It's those small steps that you take to make yourself feel like you're accomplishing something because you are. It's not, you have to save 20% of your paycheck tomorrow. Let's get you to identify what you're spending and how can we get you to save 1%. Let's start with $5. And then once you realize that you can do that, let's get you saving a little bit more and a little bit more so that you can make those impactful changes.

[00:07:43] It's a habit that we're building through goal setting so that you're actually making these incremental changes. And you're shifting that mindset to create better money habits for yourself. You mentioned using goal setting. I feel like sometimes I overwhelm myself with maybe too many financial goals. How do you guys avoid that or help people stay on track without blowing their minds with too many goals? So we're all about small goal setting, right? So we have actually a limit to how many goals you can set. Some of the goals that we create are actually created in a fun new way.

[00:08:14] It's not, here's this big Excel sheet. Let's look through your spending and see where your spending is at so that you can see in a visual way, this is where my money's going, this is how this is going, without even really realizing that it was a really big goal to do. And identifying your money personality as a goal. But then when you set your individualized goals of you want to save, you want to pay down debt, we make sure that as we track that as you go, and it's like, wait a second, you're not achieving this goal. We should probably rethink this, right? Let's pause on this one.

[00:08:43] Let's rethink this goal. You're not going to make it based off of the timeframe that you've set for yourself. But we also don't let individuals set more than six different goals. Because sometimes you can set a goal to pay down debt or to make more money. But sometimes they're just little goals like ask for a raise, right? Negotiate, start a small side gig, something like that, which is usually a little bit smaller than pay down $30,000 worth of debt, right? You have those within there.

[00:09:10] But then you also have small little mini goals within each one of those big goals. So that $30,000 goal doesn't feel as daunting when you can say, okay, today we're going to look at your cash flow. And today we're going to read about interest and how you can better understand interest. Today we're going to, you know, set a goal to identify your credit card companies and call them to see if you can negotiate down your credit card debt. So that you're creating these little goals alongside that payment.

[00:09:38] So you feel like you're continually making progress. And you're helping them learn and build that confidence around their finances so that they're not constantly feeling, well, I don't know what to do. You give them that knowledge and you give them that power base so that they can be like, wait, I know what to do. I have a clear path of what to do and I know how to get there. And I think one of the thoughts that's going through my head as I'm hearing you, you explain that you have these main six goals and then there's smaller things underneath them. I feel like people so many times they're like, yeah, of course I got to start with small steps.

[00:10:06] And once they get going with those small steps, they feel like they need to graduate to these massive goals. Is it possible to continue to manage your finances just small steps at a time as you continue making progress? When you think about it, your small steps lead to bigger steps, right? So you're doing these mini steps and along the way, it's every month. How much have you paid down for your debt? Let's see. And now you visually get to see based off of how long you wanted to pay that debt down. Here's how much you have left and how much progress you made.

[00:10:34] Then we have our little AI bot who pops in and is like, you're doing great. Awesome job, right? As you accomplish more, you get to unlock little Easter eggs within the site, which gives you motivation to keep trying and do more. So there's little like rewards planted along the way. Is that what I'm hearing? Yes. So the entire site was based off of a lot of different scientific behavioral studies and talking with financial therapists, using color theory to create an environment

[00:11:02] that feels very welcoming and nonjudgmental and allows you to make those steps to better your finances. And so you are rewarded. You're rewarded for every little different things that you're reading on a topic, right? Because you're taking that step and you're taking that autonomous step to do that thing, which in and of itself, when you have that fear and you're doing the thing, that's something to be rewarded. As you continue, it becomes easier because you're like, oh my gosh, this isn't saving 20% of my paycheck, but I can do this. I can save this $5 a week.

[00:11:32] You know, and now without realizing it, they've amassed some funds that they can see growing. And then they're like, maybe I could even do bigger or better. It's the behavioral change and using that science behind it to create those bigger shifts and create that confidence to boost what they're doing. Awesome. If you have those small rewards along the way, your small steps you're making are going to get bigger. I don't think you need to jump from the small goal to this massive goal overnight. You can kind of build a staircase, so to speak. Exactly.

[00:12:01] You don't need to be saving 20% after a day. We want you to create a smaller goal so that you can build up. Once you do get to 20%, you're like, oh my gosh, I can do this. But it requires a system to get there. You can't just do it in one day. It's almost like when you try to quit something cold turkey, a lot of times you fail because it's so hard, right? It goes back to that adage, right? Rome wasn't built in a day. So you have to, if you want to change something that you've been doing consistently for years, it's not going to happen overnight.

[00:12:29] It takes retraining. It takes growing. It takes learning to get out of that, the thing that you've set yourself up in. Awesome. I want to talk also about talking about money and how people can go outside of themselves because I think so often we'll end up, I did a couple of weeks ago on an episode about social media. We'll end up on social media feeling that FOMO, that weight that we're missing out on all the great investments and whatever everyone else is doing with their money.

[00:12:54] But I think so often we get down in the dumps and talking to other people can help us realize that other people are also dealing with that. Other people are also trying to get out of their current financial situation and level up. How can talking about money be helpful to people when they're trying to do better with money? I think that a lot of times when you have that open conversation, it helps destigmatize it, right? Exactly what you said. You don't feel like you're the only one in that situation.

[00:13:20] When you can tell somebody else what you're going through and be like, this is what's happening, you know? And they're like, oh my gosh, the same thing's happening to me. You're not alone, right? And I think it can be very lonely to have financial anxieties and deaths and issues of being unable to save or not having savings or being unemployed. But talking to other individuals about those things and making it seem like, oh wow, I'm not by myself.

[00:13:48] Watching others and being open and talking about it together is really helpful. And one of the big things they often teach is having an accountability partner, right? It's the same thing when you're working out, right? When you're working out and you don't want to work out today, you have your partner to be like, nope, we're going to the gym or we're going to at least do some sit-ups. We're going to get something done. It's the same thing when you have an accountability partner with your finances. It can be a friend. It can be a significant other. It can be whomever that you have in your circle that you can trust with your financial

[00:14:17] information. You can say, hey, this is what's going on with me. And when you want to spend that money, they can be like, before you do that, let's think about this a little bit more. And then you can be like, oh yeah. Or hey, aren't we supposed to both save this much this week? You're not going to be able to save our $50 if you go to this concert. And it's that kind of thinking that gets you to a different kind of place. I love to call accountability partners money buddies. That's kind of what I love to call my community. So how do we start those conversations? Someone's feeling that fear. They're feeling that anxiety.

[00:14:46] And they're like, yes, I don't want to be alone in this. How do they take those small steps or what are some of those small steps they can take to start a conversation with someone else? It just takes bravery and knowing someone well enough to be able to say, hey, can you be my accountability partner? I have a friend of mine and she's been through financial issues. And she's like, one day she said, I have to get my life in order. Can you be my accountability partner? But I've, you know, it's someone that I've known for a long time. But when you start those kinds of conversations, it really needs to be with someone you trust.

[00:15:16] And it needs to be with somebody that you can be fully transparent and honest with. Because a lot of times, especially today, relationships are more superficial and not as deep. You need to have one of those deeper things, those deeper relationships or counterintuitive to that, having someone that you don't care what they need, right? And it depends on your personality. Do you trust the stranger with your information more than you trust, you know, someone close to you? And a lot of times, even when you think of the therapist, right?

[00:15:46] You don't want that person to know you. You want to be able to talk to that person and be like, this is everything that's going on in my life. And they can be like, okay, I can guide you from there. And I think that's where your money buddies is brilliant because you have that ability to talk to others without having to them to know everything. But they can know about your financial situation and offer you that guidance. So I think it's a personality difference of, do you want somebody close within your circle that you can trust?

[00:16:14] Or do you want somebody who's kind of more arm's reach around your personal information so that they can make third party decisions so they're not having to weigh in on other issues? What I'm hearing you talk about is financial coaches, I think can play a big part in that. There's so many out there. There's so many other podcast hosts that I think every content creator on the internet loves to take questions. To your point, it could be someone who's maybe separated from you a little bit more, but maybe they know a little bit more about finance than any of your friends do.

[00:16:43] So you can go ahead and get a conversation started with them. You can submit a question on my website. I'd love to talk to anyone listening. If they're like, I just need to start this conversation. Maybe I'm not in the same situation, but I've probably seen it before. I think that's where those separate communities can come in handy. Like you're saying, it doesn't necessarily have to be someone super close to you, but if they are close to you, make sure you can trust them because you're going to probably divulge more information than you would care to tell every one of your other friends. So it's something you have to be careful about, certainly. But I think there's definitely benefits to both sides of that coin.

[00:17:13] Let's move into, let's talk about Groove for just a minute. I had never heard of it before. So you're going to be introducing me to it as well and our audience. But what is Groove and how does it help people with their money? Sure. Groove is a financial wellness app that helps you create goals, build habits, and identify your money personality. We created it around two years ago. We started building it because we didn't see anything else out there that kind of created

[00:17:38] that idea of the emotional side of your finances and mix that with setting goals and learning, right? A lot of things out there are solely based on modules or reading 1,400 words. And it's overwhelming when you're trying to get started. So we really broke it down into something where it was very piecemeal about what you were learning and you got to choose what you wanted to learn. We would offer guidance, but you don't have to read the things that we're suggesting.

[00:18:06] It's all about that behavioral shift, identifying who you are with your money, guiding you through videos, creating really interesting, lively content that allows you to do that. We also, we just are updating right now at the end of the month, we're going to be launching with Plaid. So with our cashflow, you're now going to be able to see your transactions live or relatively live. So you can get a deeper understanding and a snapshot of your money. And then from there, you're going to then be able to, you know, we're working on an app

[00:18:35] for the beginning of summer so that you'll be able to have it on your phone whenever you want. And I heard you mentioned in there, it's about a behavioral shift. Why is it not just giving people, here's your prescription of your numbers that you need to do? Why does the behavior matter? Because when, like exactly what we started, right? When you have that fear within you, just giving somebody a piece of paper saying, okay, here, you got to do this thing. It's not that easy. And sometimes you feel anxiety. Sometimes you feel really stressed and you need to work through that.

[00:19:03] So even when you log onto the site, one of the first questions we ask you is, how are you feeling about your finances today? And if you feel anxious or stressed, we take you through a breathing exercise because it's important to retrain your brain that money does not have to equal stress. It is proven through breathing exercises and box breathing that it lowers your stress levels before you go do the next thing. And so we built that into the platform to make sure that you're guided the right way, right?

[00:19:30] We used a lot of color theory because so often financial sites are blue or green or black and white. So it looks daunting. When you're trying to learn something, it's scary, right? It doesn't feel inviting. It doesn't feel welcoming. So we used a lot of color theory to bring people in and made it bold and bright so that you feel good about finances. You don't just see, oh gosh, you see, oh wow, this actually feels, it feels different, right?

[00:19:58] And so when you, when you experience those kinds of things and working with behavioral scientists and working, you know, using all of this research that's been done for years in other areas, but none of it's ever been done with regards to finances. That's what was important to us as we worked to build it, to really turn that idea of what financial education, financial literacy and financial wellness can really be. That's fantastic. And I love what you're saying about retraining our brains to know that money is okay.

[00:20:28] It set off some similarities in my mind because my wife and I just got a puppy. So there's so many things where maybe we do something wrong for a couple of days and it's like, oh shoot, we got to retrain her that the kennel is okay. Right before we recorded this interview, she was laying at my feet and I was like, do I just let her lay there or do I go keep getting her used to the kennel by putting her in there? And I put her in there and she cried for less time than the previous one. So like you said, as you retrain your brain, it gets a little bit easier. It gets a little bit less scary as you see that credit card bill show up and you're like, nope, I have a plan for this. I know what I'm doing with this.

[00:20:58] And then you're not as terrified and you don't ignore it anymore. I love the behavioral aspect of changing our minds to realize that working with money is okay. We're coming to the end. I have two final questions that I ask everybody. One is going to be, how can people learn more about you? But then the last one, let you think about it for a second, will be, what's one thing you wish you would have known when you were first getting started with personal finance? Before you answer that, where can people learn more about you? You can come to GrooveMoney.org, take your money personality test and get started with Groove today. That's fantastic.

[00:21:25] And what's one thing if you could go back in time and tell yourself when you're getting started, what would that be? Probably to start saving earlier and understand the idea of compound interest. Yeah, that is such an easy one. And it comes up often because it is so crucial. And I think everyone hears that and they think, oh, I know I should have started earlier. But if you haven't started, today's your best day. You don't need to throw a pity party because you didn't start 20 years ago. Realize you can start today.

[00:21:53] And then in 20 years, you'll be like, yes, I did it 20 years ago. So that's fantastic. Jessica, thank you for joining. This has been a great conversation. Thank you so much, Scholar. It was wonderful. Thank you to Jessica Potel for coming on today's episode and for that great interview. Let's kick it off here today with the money talking points. The first one is what emotions are you feeling about money that is blocking you from getting started? Well, I have a whole lot to talk about this one because emotions play a huge factor in our personal finances.

[00:22:18] So are you feeling fear, shame, guilt, embarrassment or happiness, joy, jealousy or sickness? There are so many different feelings we can have when it comes to money. And I'm sure we've all felt one of those, at least more than one of those at any given time. So let's dive into them and talk through some reasons that you might be feeling these specific emotions and see if I can help you overcome some of those feelings. Let's kick it off with fear. Are you scared of facing your debt or bills? Are you scared of managing your money because you feel like you don't deserve the money that you earned?

[00:22:47] Are you fearful of what others will think about you if you make changes to your lifestyle? What are you fearful about with money? If you're on Spotify, leave a comment on the episode. But what do you fear? And let's think about some ways that we can overcome this. You have the permission to manage the money that you earned. Don't feel like you have to spend it because you're not someone who is wealthy. Don't feel like you have to just get rid of the money because you don't deserve it because you definitely do deserve it.

[00:23:11] That can be a real often odd feeling to overcome when you feel like you're making more money than you really deserve because maybe you never grew up with a lot of money. That can be a real challenging one to overcome. But I think taking some small steps into any of these, which we're going to talk about in a later Monday talking point, taking a small step into any one of these feelings can be a great way to help you overcome these fears. Are you scared of facing your debts or bills? Well, that fear is likely mounting from mounting bills. You might have a lot of bills piled up on your counter.

[00:23:40] Well, just pay one of them to get that fear broken. Don't feel like you have to pay all of them right now. Are you fearful of what others will think if you make changes to your lifestyle? Well, take a small step towards changing your lifestyle and see how it goes. I think small steps are going to be a huge piece towards figuring out any which way you want to get started with your money, whether it's overcoming emotions or getting started with a goal or getting started with changing your lifestyle overall. But next, let's talk about shame. This one is present in really so many of our money lives.

[00:24:10] And I think it's because marketing and sales of large companies try to make us feel shame or jealousy for not having the latest and greatest thing that they're selling. And of course, it's by not having the thing they're selling. That's what they want us to feel bad about. They manipulate us with FOMO because it's a huge emotion that plays such a big role. And it's almost become glamorized to feel FOMO. It's like, oh, yeah, I feel FOMO. And then you want to be a part of things. But it can also be used to manipulate you to make you feel shame towards not having something and feel like you have to spend money on something.

[00:24:39] This is where identifying your values can play such a huge role when it comes to managing and especially spending your money. And this is going to throw back real quick to my episode with the Coastify Couple, where Matt mentioned a great exercise to help you identify what you value. Get a bunch of different categories or ways that you spend money. Write them down on a bunch of index cards. And then take about 50 paperclips and put the paperclips on the ones that you value. Then in the end, see which ones have the most paperclips. This can help you stop feeling shame about spending money on that category.

[00:25:08] This can also be a great place to do a 90-day review of your expenses. And if you've never started tracking your expenses, I would definitely recommend starting with that 90-day review. Because that's going to give you more time than just maybe the tough holiday period you went through. You're going to have a little bit more data than just kind of a rough spending patch that's kind of spurring you on to thinking about your money a little bit more. Another way that you can help identify your values is connect your cards and your accounts to a tool that will compile your spending for you. So that you can see where it's going and how you're spending your money.

[00:25:36] So many of these tools will automatically categorize these expenses, but you've got to be careful with things like Walmart or Amazon where you're buying everything at one place. Because it's not all shopping. But that's probably what it's going to default to. So you may need to do some manual categorization to your expenses, but connecting your cards and your accounts to your various online tools. Things like Personal Capital, which is now Empower, I believe. Your credit union likely has some sort of money manager tool. Monarch Money. My Budget Coach.

[00:26:03] There's a lot of different things that you can use to review your spending and it'll help you see where and how you're spending money. And then you can realize quickly where it aligns with your values. Maybe you realize that weekly ice cream trip brings you a ton of value because it's a great chance to spend time with family and friends and build relationships. Keep it. Don't stop spending money on that one unless maybe it's for your health because that might be another reason you want to stop that one. But realize what is bringing you value.

[00:26:29] Realize that maybe that isolated, lonely soda or coffee trip you're getting twice a day while commuting isn't really bringing you any value. It's just making you get to work late and get home late. So you can stop that one. This is a great way to realize what you actually want to spend money on. So do some sort of transaction review so that you can get rid of shame in your spending. The next emotion to talk about is guilt. Do you feel guilt with your money? This can be something that people feel once they start getting their money in order.

[00:26:56] So maybe you're just now you've listened to 10, 20 episodes of Money Talk with Skylar Fleming and things are starting to click for you. Now you're feeling guilty that maybe your friends aren't in the same place or your coworkers. And I know my wife and I felt guilt like this when we went to Disney World or Hawaii last year because we aren't the kind of people that go on big expensive trips. This is just going to have to be something you'll work through. And luckily it's at least coming from a position of I guess success in some of your goals. So it does make it a little bit easier to work through.

[00:27:25] But realize it is okay to have success and it's okay to do good with your money. You don't purposely have to do bad with your money because you're someone who's always struggled with money. It's okay to do good. Don't feel like you have to spend to bring yourself back down to where you were or where you don't want to be. Which reminds me of the episode that I had with Bob Wheeler a while back where he talked about he would purposely spend his money so that he wouldn't have to give money to his mom to help support his family because that wasn't something he wanted to do. There's a lot more things at play in a situation like that.

[00:27:53] But that can be similar to feeling guilt about being in a good financial situation. So don't allow guilt to ruin your good situation that you got going for you. And keep going because you're doing great. If things are starting to turn in the right direction for you, keep going and let me know how it's going. Shoot me an email or schedule a money talk on my website. But it's okay to spend money and enjoy spending money. Let's talk about two last emotions here with this money talking point. That's happiness and joy. I hope you're feeling happiness and joy with your money.

[00:28:20] It likely means you're in control, you understand your values, and you're not being controlled by the companies trying to take your money. It's a great place to be and anyone can be here. Maybe you're buried in credit card debt. You can get to a point where money brings you happiness and joy. Anyway, start with small steps, which I mentioned we're going to talk about later in the third money talking point. So make sure to stick around, but make sure to start with small steps.

[00:28:44] Let's move on to money talking point number two real quick here before we jump into those small steps and help you understand how to start a money talk. The second money talking point is how can you start a money talk today? And this is going to be a good one for you to go out and share with a friend. I know that first money talking point was a great one. So maybe there was something in there you liked. Maybe it was the piece about feeling shame around your money. Share this episode with a friend and then take the second money talking point and some of these tips and go and share it with a friend and have a money talk. But you need to start simple. Start with small steps.

[00:29:13] That's going to be a theme throughout today's episode. But also go over and check out the seven money talking points at moneytalkwithscatterfleming.com slash resources. It's simple and easy. It's a guide that I've put together to help you start money talks. You know, you've heard of the baby steps or things like that. It's the equivalent to that for starting a conversation about money. It's a money talk with scatterfleming.com slash resources and head over there and get the seven money talking points today. Let's talk about what Jessica brought up in regards of who you should talk to when it comes to talking about money.

[00:29:43] Well, there's a couple different perspectives that she put out there. One is to talk to someone close to you who you trust. This is a great idea. Like she said, make sure it's someone who's not going to judge you. And you know who those friends are. And the reason for this is you truly want help. And if someone comes in and starts judging you, it's going to end up making the situation not helpful and probably head in the wrong direction. Realize you can't change the past. The past is past. And you can only look forward and make adjustments going forward. So don't be hard on yourself.

[00:30:10] But if you tell a stranger about your money situation and they aren't nice about it or they begin to bag on your previous decisions, move on and find someone else to talk to. It's an unfortunate situation to be in, especially if you open up to a friend about your money situation. But if they're mean about it or just not nice about it or aren't helpful, you're probably just going to have to fade that conversation out and find someone else to talk to. The second thing that Jessica brought up is talking to a stranger about your money situation, which you may be in your head saying stranger danger, stranger danger. Don't talk to strangers.

[00:30:40] Right. But if it's someone who's maybe not in your inner circle, but maybe knows a little bit more about money, it can be super helpful to talk to a stranger about money. There's a lot of people out there who can truly help you with your money who know a lot. And these people likely like to help other people and have likely helped other people as well. Financial coaches like myself, podcast hosts like myself, other podcast hosts, Facebook groups, maybe a WhatsApp group, a Discord group.

[00:31:06] These are places that can help provide objective feedback that helps you go forward instead of being rude and judging the past. So consider maybe using a stranger head over to my website and schedule a free money talk and I can help you begin to provide feedback on going forward. And if people do reply in the comments or if you post online about your money situation and they're unhelpful judgment comments, just ignore them or delete them. And I'm also happy to help. Like I keep mentioning, set up a free money talk with me in the show notes or just shoot me an email.

[00:31:34] But now is the moment you've all been waiting for. Let's come back around to talking about how small steps can help you with retraining your brain, which is the third money talking point. And guess what? There is a reason why the baby steps exist and there's a reason they're called the baby steps. It's because they're simple steps one after the other. You just keep moving along. When we set large goals to try to change everything about our financial situation, it gives us too large of a target to realistically hit, which makes it super difficult.

[00:32:03] Because if you have this massive target that you have to hit and the one little thing in the middle is what you actually want to do, but you're trying to be so broad with your goal. It's hard to actually nail it right dead in the center. But if you take a series of small steps to get to that target, it's going to help you a lot. Big gigantic goals set you up for failure. It makes it hard to feel those good emotions about money and makes it a lot more common to feel those bad emotions about money when you set large, massive goals.

[00:32:28] So let's break down a couple of big goals and discuss together how we can break them down into smaller goals. And quick spoiler alert, here at the end of this episode, I'm going to have my wife on to talk about how we've managed to break down a big goal of saving for retirement into some smaller steps. So stay tuned for that. But first, let's talk about how you could pay off $40,000 of debt. That's a huge goal. And you might even have more than this. You can still break it down into small steps. A small step could be first identifying your minimum payments.

[00:32:58] How much do you have to actually pay no matter what? Like what are you committed to? And then set a plan to make sure you're at least paying that minimum payment to avoid penalties. Now you can begin to look at that 90-day expense review that you did. But first, make sure you pat yourself on the back and reward yourself for being able to do the minimum payment. Maybe the debt wasn't on purpose, so it feels really intimidating and scary. But being able to actually do the minimum can be a great thing. And then after you've reviewed your spending, see where you can cut down to put some extra money towards your debt.

[00:33:27] And the thing that could also be scary, maybe you're trying to pay off that $40,000 of debt in a year or two. Or maybe you have more debt. Consider breaking it down into a smaller time period that makes that amount smaller. The main thing to do when you're just getting started is don't try to target that huge entire number. Look at small things you can do to throw at it. Can you pay $5,000 in a quarter? Can you pay $10,000 every six months to pay it off in two years? Things like that. Maybe you're looking at the debt in a different perspective.

[00:33:57] Don't look at the entire number yet because that's when you can begin to feel emotions of overwhelm, fear, and shame, and things like that. But anything helps. So figure out how you can take some small steps to begin chopping away that massive debt. And here's a fun one that I just thought of. Maybe have a no-spend challenge. And each time you find yourself wanting to buy something that deep down you know is the reason you're having this no-spend challenge, make a payment towards your debt in that same amount that that purchase would have been. And that's going to help you not purchase the thing because your money's gone.

[00:34:24] But it's also going to help you take down some little chunks out of your debt. It might not be huge, but that could be a huge win because you're, one, avoiding a purchase that you have realized you don't need through this no-spend challenge, but you're also being able to contribute towards a big goal that you have in mind. That's one way you could break down a giant goal of paying off some large number of debt. Don't focus solely on that big number. Focus on the small other things you can do that'll help you step towards that goal.

[00:34:52] The second large goal I want to talk about is saving for retirement or trying to reach financial independence. This is one that my wife and I are dealing with. This is such a large goal and it can be super overwhelming. Let's pass it over to me and my wife talking about how we broke this goal down and worked through this. This is also in follow-up to the episode where I had the Coastify couple on, where you heard me mention we were going to be having conversations about Coastify. So if you haven't listened to that, head over there and check that one out in the show notes. But this is going to be a follow-up to that.

[00:35:21] Here it is, my wife and I, Rebecca, talking about how we broke down our financial independence goals into some smaller goals. All right, now it is time to talk with Rebecca about how we broke down our financial independence goals. Rebecca, thank you for coming on the podcast yet again. Yeah, of course. So as we get started here, one of the things that we struggled with was saving for retirement or trying to reach financial independence is a huge goal. Wouldn't you agree there's a lot of big numbers with that goal? Yes, very, very big numbers. And that can seem a little bit intimidating.

[00:35:49] And this is something that you and I have had to deal with and break down. How do you feel like breaking it down into smaller discussions and smaller goals helped us actually make some progress? Well, like you just said, financial independence and the FIRE movement has some big numbers. And that was really intimidating to me. And I'm definitely somebody who likes to have fun and enjoy life while we're going. And those numbers, to me, seemed like they were going to be just too large

[00:36:17] and really limit the things I was able to do now because it was only focusing on the future. But as you've learned and you've taught me, we've learned there are some steps that are smaller and maybe a little bit more achievable on the way to FI, such as Coast FI. And that's been something we've been really focusing on, which has been helpful because it's broken down that big goal into something that seems a little bit more small, a little bit more manageable, while still allowing us to achieve some of those retirement goals

[00:36:46] that we have in the future. Yeah, why do you think financial independence as a whole felt so overwhelming? Because I think we kept going at it for probably like a year of me trying to talk through these numbers with you. And we weren't making any progress. It was frustrating for both of us. Why did it seem so hard? Well, it was just so big. And I felt like it was just planning for when we retire. We got to do all of this work so we can retire, so we can retire, so we can retire.

[00:37:11] And I would love to not have to work, but at the same time, I'm only 27 years old. And just to work, work, work, work, work now seemed overwhelming and seemed stressful. And I also worry about, well, what am I going to do with all that extra time in the future? And so the numbers were just big, the timeline just seemed intimidating. And I was having a really hard time wanting to give up some of my freedom now.

[00:37:39] Yeah, the freedom now, the money now in order to achieve these big number goals that just seemed impossible when you first look at them. Yeah, and one of the things that helped us so much with planning for investments and things like that was actually writing it down. I know you would say this, our written financial plan has helped a lot because it keeps me from going crazy on you and makes things a whole lot easier. But we also tried to employ that with figuring out our financial independence goals.

[00:38:08] And we got the tip to use a whiteboard, which was a great tip for us because it allowed me to actually write down what these numbers would be instead of just throwing crazy numbers at you. Instead of just throwing crazy numbers at you, I was able to write down what it would actually look like. How do you feel like writing down our goals helped us work through the conversation? Well, like you just said, I mean, writing them down gave it a visual aspect that I could then see and visualize these goals. Because when you're just spouting off numbers, to me, they just sound big.

[00:38:38] They sound crazy. But when we actually write down our income and our expenses and what the numbers would actually look like, I was able to see that there was more money left over than I anticipated. And I was able to see that these were manageable goals and manageable numbers, especially since you're the spreadsheet master man. And so you see these numbers all the time, but I don't look at them as frequently or as often. And so to have them written down in a way that I could look at and understand rather than just being like, well, yeah,

[00:39:08] this is the way it should be based on what I've seen on the spreadsheet. And so that was really helpful for me to be able to visualize. Yeah. So a huge recommendation to anybody listening to this episode, write down your numbers beyond just your spreadsheet. And I know for me, it was silly. As I was writing them down, I was like, I wish I could just do the math with the spreadsheet and with some formulas and things like that to show it very easily to create these fancy calculators. But just writing down the numbers to give you an estimate, to give you a talking point was a huge deal for us

[00:39:37] because it allowed Rebecca to say, like she said, there was money left over in the budget to be able to actually go for these goals. There was money left there to max out our IRAs, which leads me into our next point of breaking it down even into some smaller categories beyond just writing it down and maybe scaling back the goal a little bit to something that's realistic. As we were talking about investing, and this is for anyone listening to this, break it down into smaller categories. Like what are you doing in your IRA? What are you doing in your HSA? What are you doing in your 401k taxable accounts, et cetera?

[00:40:07] What are you doing in those specific accounts? What can you do there? And then look at how they all add up together because I think that's what also is a big unlock for us is I was saying, oh, I'm already doing this in my work 401k. Since that's coming out of my paycheck right away, we're not even noticing that. Then if you consider the employer match and things like that, then we add in maxing out our IRAs, the money we're putting into HSAs, things like that. It just quickly got to a number where we were like, wow, we're a heck of a lot closer to what that actual coast fine number would be to hit it in, I can't remember,

[00:40:35] five or 10 years or something like that. And it made it a whole lot easier once we broke it down into separate categories. How did that help you visualize it, Rebecca, once you saw, oh, we can do this area and this area and make it a little bit easier to do all at once? Well, I mean, like you were just saying, because you would come to me and say, in order to reach these financial independence goals, we need to invest X amount of money. And I get a little weary of investing, a little nervous about investing. Yeah, and you didn't quite realize what we were already doing. I think that was where I was mistaken.

[00:41:05] And that's it. And so I'm like, you want us to put how much money into investing? But when you broke it down, wrote it down on the whiteboard, showed me, like you were just saying, that there was already money that was going into the 401k and there was already money we were investing in this spot and already money we were investing in this spot that I was used to investing. Then it made that overall number so much more attainable because I was able to see that we were already investing in certain areas and we only needed to contribute just a little bit more

[00:41:34] in order to reach some of those bigger numbers. And that was something I didn't understand that you did that once you explained and we were able to diagram that out, yeah, and write it out, we were able to see we were a lot closer than we thought we were in reaching some of those number goals. Yeah, and we realized with all of this that full-on financial independence was such an unrealistic goal to hit soon that we would have to cut out that lifestyle stuff that you said that we enjoy. Like we like going on trips, we like going to get treats and ice cream and things regularly and we realized that

[00:42:04] that would all have to disappear in order for us to actually push for financial independence and we didn't want to make that compromise. How is it helpful for us to work through that to be able to realize what we would actually be giving up and adjust our goal? How did adjusting our goal help us as we were retraining our brains? Again, I'll put a little plug in for what I've learned about Coast Fi. I think that's a really nice step in the fact that it helps us attain those retirement investing and saving goals, but you don't have to give up

[00:42:33] everything you're doing now. It allows the flexibility that not investing for the future prevents and investing in fire super hardcore prevents. You have that flexibility because you're making the goal more attainable and we were able to kind of look to it where we are at in life because I think we're young. We have a lot of different goals and the future is still really unknown and where are we going to end up with jobs

[00:43:02] and when and where do we want to buy a house and when and how are we going to have kids and all those different things. And I think we had a lot of goals going at once, which was really overwhelming and very intimidating. And so as we started looking at Fi and looking at Coast Fi and breaking down those goals more, we were able to realize what can we do in this current stage of life now to focus on some of the main goals that we can do now instead of feeling like we need to be pulled in different directions

[00:43:31] and recognizing that we can change those goals at different points based on how we're feeling and where we're at and achieving other goals as well. Yeah, there were so many things we were trying to do. It was kind of splitting our money in a million different directions and we weren't focused on anything because I think all of the goals we were trying to do are a little bigger than we actually could wrap our minds around. So as we tried to scale a few of them back, we realized, oh, we don't need to be doing these other ones right now because we actually realized how much money we had for these goals and we realized that if we need to flip a switch, we can.

[00:44:01] Like if we need to suddenly shift towards down payment savings, we can. If we need to shift towards baby savings, we can. Like there's so many options that this allowed us to retrain our minds for this last money talking point. Well, and just real quick, we were in a unique point in the fact that we are both working, we're making some pretty good income and we don't have any kids. And so I had to come to the realization that this is the stage we're in and we may never be in this position again where we have the income that we have

[00:44:30] without some of the expenses that come as life progresses. And so that helped me realize that now is a good time to focus on some of those financial independence goals because we have the flexibility to do that. So I just wanted to throw that out there. Yeah. So for everyone listening who's having that battle of saving early now so that your invested money can grow later, it's possible. You can figure out that point where both spouses can find that equal ground. You just kind of have to work through the goals from different perspectives, write it down

[00:45:00] and talk through some different perspectives. So get out of the spreadsheets, get onto a whiteboard and write it down. But that's going to wrap up this quick interview with Rebecca talking about this last money talking point here. I'll send it back to Skylar on the other microphone to finish up this episode. Thanks, Rebecca, for coming on. Yeah, no problem. Happy to be here. Thank you so much to Rebecca for coming on for that short segment so I could share a very real way that we're working on financial goals. But that does it for today's episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I know I enjoyed creating this one.

[00:45:30] Let's wrap it all up. In today's episode, we explored the emotional and practical hurdles of getting started with personal finance. Jessica Patel shared her journey, highlighting how life's events like college and medical debt pushed her to confront her finances. We discussed fear, shame, guilt and how they often block us from taking actions and why understanding our money personality is key to breaking through. Jessica emphasized the importance of setting small achievable goals to combat the overwhelm of big financial ambitions. We also touched on the power of having accountability partners

[00:45:59] or as we like to call them money buddies. Whether it's a trusted friend, a financial coach or a stranger on the internet, open conversations can help us feel less alone with our money struggles. Remember, progress takes time. It's all about small, consistent steps. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. The best way to stay up to date and connected with all things Money Talk is to sign up for my email list. Head over to Money Talk with SkylerFlamming.com and submit your name and email right there on the homepage. You can also use the contact page of my website to send me any questions or a crazy money story you might have. Remember, the best way

[00:46:29] to learn from today's episode is to go and have a Money Talk about today's topic. Thank you for listening to this week's episode of Money Talk. I'm your host, Skyler Fleming. Have a great week.